Why Are We Here?

Garreth | 26/01/2010 - 15:30

Why are we here? Why is it that we are paricipating in the so called "community theatre"? Many say that it is for the love of it, the love of stepping out onto the stage and using amazing words to lift an audience beyond the mundanity of their normal every day life. I see very little of this in the community theatre, what I see is a community devided and a community devided is not a community. Every year the Finley awards cause the same ruckus and every year it's the same bitchy comments which spring to life again.

Now, many of you will be putting one foot in the stirrup of your high horse by this point to explain to me that many of the views expressed on this website are those of a minority and that for the most part people are happy and supportive of the Finleys; I disagree. It's the old TV adage, if you get one phone call complaint its representative of a larger number of people and it's the same here. I have met many people within the theatre community who have expressed to me on many occasions their opinions that the Finleys are everything from a self-glorifying wank fest to a popularity contest. Indeed, one of my dear friends and colleagues is so disgusted by the petulance surrounding the Finelys that he simply refuses to have anything to do with them.

My question to you then is: do the Finleys celebrate moments of theatrical excellence throughout the year or do they damage our community, creating unnecessary internal conflict and rivalry? Now, I know as well as you do that the answer to that question simply isn't as black and white as that but surely if these awards that are meant to celebrate the community are damaging it in any way they should be stopped.

It's at this point we come back to my first question: Why are we here? To celebrate our love and passion for all things theatre or to whinge and bitch at eachother like a pack of unruly teenagers because we have a desire to be called "The Best" by a panel of judges. Surely, we can get together and celebrate a year of theatrical excellence as a community without the need to elevate a few by pinning them with the definitive article of "The Best"? Or can we? Do we really feel that we have to qualify our works of passion and love by having a selected few call them "The Best"? I think if you look deep into yourself and ask the question "Why am I here?" you will find the answer to this.

I'm not against awards but I am against things that damage us as a community, I think that the Finleys, though they began with the best of intentions, have begun to damage this community and I would call upon the ITA of W.A. to make a serious re-assesment of the awards before including them into next year's calendar of events.

Garreth's blog | email this blog | 1161 reads

I think analysing the Finley melodramas misses the point...

Author: MusicalMum
Date: 26/01/2010 - 16:04

...the Finleys are merely a symptom. They are not the disease.

The Finleys are not what is damaging the Perth community theatre community. It is the community itself responsible for it's own sabotage and damage. The Finleys are just a nice big convenient target for the community to scapegoat in order to not deal with its own real issues.

Heaven forbid it's 'us' doing this to ourselves! That's the true elephant in the room that no one is willing to address. And until 'we' do, nothing will change; Finleys or no Finleys.

Although, I do think that we are probably better off with the Finleys. Without that convenient scapegoat and a nice big identifiable opportunity for those who need it to pour out all of their psychoses built up over a season of theatre, it is likely the community would be in far worse shape than it is.

All that nonsense would then need other outlets and it is likely 'we'd' self-implode pretty fast.

Of course if it were possible to really come together and talk as a community - 'name the nonsense' as it were - then the Finleys and the community itself might be able to start the process of growing up and maturing into the fine pillar of the greater community it has the potential to be.

Right now we have glimpses of how amazing and powerful (as in happiness, nurturing, developmental and supportive power) our community theatre scene could be. But so many, mostly unintentionally, work against this from the inside; hence the sabotage and damage. 'We' are undoubtedly 'our' own worst enemy at present.

The extraordinary lack of perspective and the oft very tenuous grip on reality so strongly present (and keenly felt by many I suspect) does us no favours at all.

It's really sad. Not just because of the enormity of the unmet potential, but also because of the truly phenomenal efforts and talent, as well as the unbridled generosity of spirit that are also present.

/end rant

In an awards system, the

Author: Mr Fair (not verified)
Date: 26/01/2010 - 17:16

In an awards system, the mature among us will probably not care one way or another if they win or lose….as long as it is seen to be fair. In theory, a fair system should be easy to construct. If, in a fair system, I don’t win an award, I am perfectly happy to congratulate the winner and mean it. From what I saw and heard this year, I’m not sure that it was fair, and I think this is the danger to the events credibility.

With my own ears, I heard feedback being given to production crew prior to other judges coming to the show to give them opportunity to ‘fix things up’. With my own eyes, I saw comments written in judges critiques that were very much personal, nothing to do with the show that was meant to be judged, and highly inappropriate. I was nominated at this years awards. When I told my ever supportive mother that I hadn’t won, said to me ‘Don’t worry love, it’s one less thing you have to dust’. Unfortunately, she was able to say this to me a week before the awards night, because I was told who had won in my category, and in numerous other categories. I know that I was not the only person that knew either. Even during the actual awards show, I was there when someone ELSE said the names of the Best Director category winners right in front of me with a knowing smirk on his face five minutes before they were to be announced!

I am not attacking the ITA at all, I know they work hard to stage this event and a lot of planning goes into it. And I know that the level of fairness can be different depending on individual perception. However, I don’t think any of the above should ever have happened.

And to answer Garreth’s question, yes, I do what I do because I love it. I cannot imagine not having this in my life. I don’t care about being ‘The Best’, I care about bringing out the best in my cast to present the best performance they can to the audiences that keep community theatres alive. And fair judging system or not, I will continue to try to do that.

Why was this comment rated

Author: Garreth
Date: 26/01/2010 - 17:31

Why was this comment rated down? There is nothing trollish about it and Mr. Fair makes valid and good points, valid and good points which are reflective and corrobrative of some of the points I made in my blog above.

I rated it down because gutless unsubstantiated

Author: MusicalMum
Date: 26/01/2010 - 17:56

...allegations hold no credibility or interest to me.

'Mr Fair' might be fair, but 'he's' also a coward.

If 'Mr Fair' wants to make these sorts of allegations, then 'he' needs to grow a backbone - identify 'himself' and substantiate 'his' claims.

I also wonder why it is if 'Mr Fair' KNEW to a certainty what he claims he did so far in advance of the awards, he didn't do something about it?

It's oh so easy to hide behind some unverified anonymous pseudonym and toss about allegations, the credibility of which depend entirely on the character, integrity and evidence of the person making them (thus in making them this way leaving them with zero credibility). Quite another to have the courage of your convictions and call those accused to account.

I note that when members of the ITA and/or Finley adjudicators respond to any such allegations they do so as identifiable members of the community.

They are willing to put their names and reputations on the line; which would be ruined if any of these allegations could be proven.

However, their accusers are too cowardly to do the same. Afraid they won't win another Finley maybe?! Sticking out tongue

It's simple. PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

I should have said this in

Author: Mr Fair (not verified)
Date: 26/01/2010 - 18:26

I should have said this in my first post, the reason I don't put my name to it is quite simple. I work with a lot of people who DO value the Finleys; they love going, they work hard during the year in hopes of securing a nomination and a win. I might not do the same, but I don't scoff at them or try to take away what they work towards. I will not do anything to affect their chances and I can't say for certain that that wouldn't happen. If it makes me a coward to look out for my casts interests, then so be it.

As I said, I was not intending to attack the ITA at all. Some of the more facetious posts tend to forget that the committee also do it because they love it, and sometimes I am not sure why the committee continues, but they do, so good on them. They are trying to better our theatre community and it's not their fault if some people can't keep their mouths shut.

And what was I supposed to do about knowing some of the winners? Post a list on here and congratulate them? Take away the anticipation and excitement that they might have had going into the awards? Or perhaps contact the ITA and let them deal with more stress in the lead up to the night? I wouldn't appreciate that if someone did it to me, so why do it to them?

Funnily enough, I do have the interests of the awards night and the committee at heart. I still went to support other people, even though I didn't win. I am not worried about not winning awards, what I am worried about is the future of the awards if this happens this year, and I think that in essence the night is beneficial to our community.

And I'll shut up now.

No matter how many

Author: Walter Pidgeon (not verified)
Date: 26/01/2010 - 19:40

No matter how many individuals complain about the Finleys,the fact is the awards would not exist if they were not wanted by the majority.Community theatres give a vote of confidence for the Finleys each time they register and pay to have a play adjudicated.
If anyone has a real gripe about the awards they should take it to the committee of the theatres they are a member of.If enough members are anti awards the theatres will stop registering plays.
Of course this will not happen because the majority want the Finleys.So, to the dissenters,exercise your right to free speech by all means,but please also respect the fact that democratic processes are involved and the majority are happy with the present situation

Are they? Just because

Author: Garreth
Date: 26/01/2010 - 22:05

Are they?

Just because people participate is not an indicator that they are happy with the structure of the awards. I would say that many do it out of habit, I would say a few do it for the joy of competition and fewer do it for the wrong reasons.

In this regard I would answer each group as thus:

For those who do it out of habit - What is the community or your theatre group gaining from your continued involvement?

For those who do it for a competition - What competition is there in an event where by the accounts of many the results are either rigged or not based on artistic merit?

For those who do it for the wrong reasons - I have nothing to say to you.

It might be radical to abolish the Finley awards but at least the ITA might like to have a look at ways in which we can stop or stem the negativity that surrounds the event every year i.e. How could the event be run in a way that is more accountable to the democratic process that Mr. Pidgeon seems to be so quick to bring up.

Fairness is subjective

Author: Labrug
Date: 28/01/2010 - 09:21

Having a second read through this, I just had to pick out one (or two) things.

"In theory, a fair system should be easy to construct."

In theory, yes. In practise you are dealing with egos, greed, ambition, selfishness, pettiness, personal bias, rivalry, etc which are all natural emotive states. Any "Fair" system can easily be subverted by an individual with even the best of intentions who may have a slight bias in some regards. Let's face it, we all have a little of that and it can sometimes be a personal battle to keep your feelings at bay.

"If, in a fair system, I don’t win an award, I am perfectly happy to congratulate the winner and mean it."

And that would depend upon your personal view that the system is :fair" which is objective. For example, I think is it quite fair that industry "professionals" (paid actors, techs, directors) are included in a Community Awards process as long as they were being assessed for a Community Theatre based production. However, others do not think that this is fair. Some would see "fair" as being - "If you earn in excess of $x for a given year for theatrically related work, then you should be excluded." Which is just a valid opinion of a "fair" system as "It's Community Theatre for a reason. Community includes ALL regardless."

I make no reference to your comments about leaked lists and advanced notes, as I have no-way of confirming your concerns, nor your identity. However, if such an event has occurred, then I think most would agree that this is a serious breach of protocol and fairness. It is certainly giving specific individuals and/or groups a distinct advantage over others. Yet this would simple demonstrate the ease of which a "fair" system can be undermined or subverted for more personal reasons.

So, in summary, a "fair" system maybe be theoretically easy, it is however still a subjective process and not immune to corruption of even the smallest degree.

I feel better now...

Absit invidia (and DFT No no no )

Jeff Watkins
SN Profile
Photographer
Community Spirit

I have had concerns

Author: Robert J Whyte
Date: 27/01/2010 - 01:33

I myself have had concerns over this years Awards, but I am not going to voice them online here.

I am going to voice my concerns at the next ITA AGM, in a civil and thoughtful manner in General Business, and I will point out that every year, the ITA encourages the people that have issues with the awards to come along and voice their opinions.

Every year its the same level of apathy, and the same old faces at the AGM.

I do not believe it is the Awards that are the problem, it is certain people involved, that; through their actions, perpetuate ill will through their ego driven hubris.

Hey Robert, I am

Author: Garreth
Date: 27/01/2010 - 14:06

Hey Robert,

I am unfortuantely unable to make it to this years AGM but if you would be willing, I whole heatedly give you my permission to use my above statements as an additional example to demonstrate a very real for cause of conern.

Ok, Garreth, in response to you request re the ITA AGM

Author: Robert J Whyte
Date: 29/01/2010 - 02:51

Ok....

***Takes in deep breath, and musters as much tact as he possibly can, knowing that he doesn't have that much***

How do you know you can't attend when they haven't even set the date for it yet?

Thou goatish, folly fallen pumpion!

Ummm.....Isn't the meeting always on....

Author: MusicalMum
Date: 29/01/2010 - 12:08

...the 3rd Sunday in February? It certainly has been the last few years. Perhaps he (reasonably) assumed that would be the case this year also? Or at least assumed the latter part of February and may not be available at that time.

Absolutely correct, given

Author: Garreth
Date: 30/01/2010 - 12:00

Absolutely correct, given that under the conditions of the ITA's constitution and most other constitutions the AGM is held on the same day ever year i.e. the third Sunday in February, I will have both directing and teaching commitments on that day.

Paul's Rant

Author: Paul Treasure
Date: 27/01/2010 - 15:25

Please forgive the bluntness of this post
But some of us have worked our proverbial off recently and are a little bit frayed around the edges
And I apologise to everyone else for troll baiting

I also declare this rant to in no way represent any person or organisation’s stance except mine own!

Dear Whingers!
(Not addressed at you, Robert, because frankly when you complain about something you don’t whinge, you know the right way to do it, and you back it up with action to improve what you’re complaining about)

Is the Finley system perfect?
No! Of course it isn’t, no awards system is.

Is the Finley system better than it was?
Hell, yes! And every year we tweak and adjust, sometimes in a large way, sometimes in a way that only a handful of people are aware. All in the efforts to improve the system and make it fairer.

Can we do that without your input?
No! If you have problems with an aspect, you need to tell us, properly, so we can do something to adjust them.
Write a letter or drop an email to someone on the committee, or something like that
But an anonymous post on this website is not going to be taken seriously.

As to allegations about irregularities this year.
I don’t know whether there was a list going around or not, but I can tell you that more than half of the awards given this year were ones I was able to tip just from scuttlebutt about what was good from around the traps.
I mean, honestly, who DIDN’T know Jenn McCann was going to win Best Actress!

My other big question.
If the list of winners was leaked, as happens occasionally, hell it even happened with the Oscars one year.
Why does that makes the winners invalid?
Remember there is no voting process with the Finley’s, it’s not like the Oscars where they come up with a list of nominees then vote on the winner who is announced on the day.
The process is, the judges sit down to work out the winner AT THE SAME TIME as they work out the nominees. So yes there are a handful of people who know the winners before the rest of us even know the nominees. If that info is leaked, then shame on them.

Besides, if the list was leaked WHY DIDN”T I GET A COPY???!!!
[Paul glares around the room pointing his finger at various people for dramatic effect]

But to the people who are saying the process is rigged and isn’t based on artistic merit!
I DARE YOU TO SAY THAT TO THE FACE OF THE PEOPLE YOU THINK SHOULDN’T HAVE WON!

Saying, “I disagree with the decision, what the hell were the judges thinking!” is one thing
Dammit, we’ve all done that before on one or more occasions
I don’t think there has been a Finley’s or a Dramafest when at least one category HASN’T made me think the judges didn’t have a momentary lapse of sanity during the deliberations.

BUT saying it’s rigged is quite another!

Go on then, which decision WASN’T based on artistic merit?

How does one judge artistic

Author: Garreth
Date: 27/01/2010 - 15:58

How does one judge artistic merit?

synonymous

Author: Labrug
Date: 27/01/2010 - 16:09

Like everything else - carefully. How do you judge the best applicant for a job? Audition? The Best movie? Who comes first in a running race?

You compare with what else is on offer and you attempt to apply some guidelines (rules) to add some measure of objectiveness to a very subjective process. A running race may be easier to assess than an actor's performance, which of itself may be easier than assessing direction, but the same principle applies.

Absit invidia (and DFT No no no )

Jeff Watkins
SN Profile
Photographer
Community Spirit

awards and art

Author: Neville Talbot
Date: 28/01/2010 - 01:10

I have been very out of things for ages, again.

However, I have two things to add to all the 'stuff' I've read the last few weeks about these awards.
1. Get involved if you don't like how it's being done. Or shut the hell up.

2. Why do we award prizes in ANY artistic activity? I am still to this day completely and utterly bemused by this idea.

You simply CANNOT empirically measure art, and therefore you cannot give someone first place without it being a subjective decision. Someone clearly finishes the race first, or throws the javelin furthest, or jumps the highest. Who 'danced the best'?!

Ironically, popular voted awards in my opinion have FAR more credibility than one decided by a few judges. This is no slur on the judges- good on you for doing what is clearly a shockingly unappreciated job. However, "most popular" or industry voted "best" categories at the very least are clear in what they are.
If you get the most votes from the public, you are the most popular. simple.
your peers vote en-masse that you are the best actor in a movie, then you are given the prize saying- best actor in a movie, as voted by...

Bust simply- BEST musical, BEST director. the whole thing makes no sense to me. Best how? comedy vs drama, new vs traditional, having more money to spend/less money to spend?

I have mentioned in past posts my horror at the complete smothering effect of competition in dance in particular. However, eisteddfods, finleys, dance comps etc. are simply too subjective to have any credibility in my opinion. They too often cause more problems than not.
I remember a major eisteddfod a few years back causing all sorts of bemusement at the open aria prize winner. The prize winner was a young person whose career still doesn't exist, several of the other finalists are now principals with major opera companies. Were the judges 'wrong'?! Knowing all the voices involved, I could not correlate the decision with my knowledge of the voices. Was I 'right'?!
However, the winner walked away with a fair amount of cash, and therefore the problem is identified.

I remember the disappointment of not getting the highest mark in my recital at uni. I had come from a high-achieving background, particularly in sport (where I had lots of trophies for measurable results), and was completely gutted by not 'winning' the recital. My teacher at the time gave me the best advice ever- "there is no winner in music. There is always someone better than you at something, and it's the striving that matters, not the prize".

Maybe the subject is less about fixing the finleys, and more about the complete futility of awarding a first prize in our industry in the first place?

Celebrate the community by all means
BUT
just like you don't need a beer to enjoy fireworks, you don't need a trophy to enjoy community theatre. Maybe a showcase instead?

Congrats to all prize winners- those of you I know are extraordinarily deserving of recognition.

I will return to my hole.

Nev

It's the simple things stupid...

I have never seen

Author: JoeMc
Date: 28/01/2010 - 11:35

I have never seen any value in the "Robby's" only in the work of the adjudicators input to the comeatre concerned. Even if that input/playback is taken as being usefull, with a pinch of salt or just as a dose of Harpic!

I presume there is some percieved value in being awarded an ITA 'FA' certicate to an ameatre group or individual. Even though it is just a foyer decoration or used by some pathetic luvvies as a self promotion/publicity in being an 'Award Winning' whatever?

But I believe to most black ducks on this pond are more interested in 'What we are about' than any Robby, which means just that - FA!

Simply, the Best...

Author: crgwllms
Date: 28/01/2010 - 14:57

In Art, it is of NO importance to be judged 'best'.

However it is of great importance to strive to BE best.

Two conflicting statements? Nevertheless, that's what great Art is.

Cheers,
Craig

~<8>-/====\---------

noice

Author: Neville Talbot
Date: 02/02/2010 - 01:28

As usual Mr Williams, I could not have said it better...

Nev

It's the simple things stupid...

Seeing as we are judging....

Author: Skybe
Date: 28/01/2010 - 08:46

Again not wanting to Troll bait...i am purely curious...

I have never been to a Finley awards night. I do not know anyone that is part of the ITA. However I have seen a few people at different shows - in different shows - and I think I may have met Norma once. I have never won a Finley award. My parents were involved in Melvilles Sound of Music YEARS ago when it won. A few years back I believe a play I was in did get a nomination. And this year I was part of the backstage crew for Jesus Christ Superstar which had nominations. So you could say I'm unbias.

However I have been involved 3 (non consecutive) years of the One-Act Play fests in both Perth and Bunbury as a performer.

Enough background story.

My question...Why does there seem to be so much bitching about the judges and the winners of the Finleys when all I seem to see surrounding the One-Act Fests is love, support and a great community theatre spirit.

I look forward to the One-Act Fests.

Surely the Finleys are just a larger version?

I dont understand. Most of us are the same performers - techies - supporters. Why does everyone suddenly get their knickers in a knot about the Finleys?

But really in the scheme of things, I do community theatre - because I can't throw/catch a ball!

Sky

The one-act plays have

Author: Byketiz (not verified)
Date: 28/01/2010 - 09:17

The one-act plays have professional judges. The Finley Awards don't.

Have you considered this Byketiz?

Author: Walter Pennypincher. (not verified)
Date: 28/01/2010 - 14:00

Ok then, lets look at logisitics of having it judged by professionals.

If you average everything out and include travel time (which is paid time in a work sense if you have a job "on the road")
attendance, writing critiques and attendance at meetings, it averages at about 5 hours per judge per show.

Current casual rates per hour for clerical administrative work at a reasonable level is about $35 an hour.

And lets say that includes fuel, paper, ink, electricity and budget country travel in that hourly rate.
20 hours total from all 4 judges per show = $700
57 shows at $700 a show = $39900

Lets round it off at $40000

Admin costs you could add another couple of grand so lets make it $42000

then we have venue hire and staging at professional rates at a professional venue with all hired staff (bar box office ushers car park attendants) would be $15000 to $20000

so roughly $60000 to $65000 all up.

Deduct the entry fee money for 57 shows its back to about $60000

divide that by 450, your ticket price(if they want to make profit enough to at least pay some of the up front deposits you have to fork out for the next year would cost around $160 per person....or maybe we make it $1000 bucks an for each club to pay entry to cover the costs, I'm sure they would love that!

That would be the cost to have "professionals" judge it.

Once it was judged by them, but they couldnt commit the time,so it was dumped on the ITA's shoulders, with no support funding other than the Finley Trust monies.

What happens if one of your judges gets a professional gig half way through the year?

Work is work in a very tough industry, yeah, they are totally going to say "I can't take the job, I'm judging the Finley's for amateur theatre!"

Find a sponsor then, go on, with your wisdom, tell us oh great knowing one, where you will succeed where repeated efforts looking at all, and I mean ALL avenues to get sponsors and or funding for it have failed, because the only money we get from the Finley Trust is the prize money.

the most the ITA have ever had in sponsorship over the last 5 years was $3000 for one year.

A bit hard to do with an ITA that has an account with $10 to $15K turnover every year.

But, as always you are a sideline critic who probably wouldn't have the slightest clue about the the practicalities of having professional judges, much less running the event.

The drama festival adjudicator is paid a flat $1000, because thats the limit of the funds available to pay a professional, and its over a few days, not a whole year.

To run the Finleys with professionals, that you have to pay, it could not work, unless you get major sponsorship, and in tough economic times, I doubt there is much to be found.

Standing Ovation

Author: Paul Treasure
Date: 28/01/2010 - 14:08

[Paul rises to his feet and cheers wildly at this post]

I have to admit I'm not

Author: grantwatson
Date: 28/01/2010 - 16:24

I have to admit I'm not sure what the deal is with the Finley adjudicators each year - do they see *everything*, or are there different adjudicators for different things? (i.e. musical adjudicators, classical theatre adjudicators, comedy adjudicators, whatever)

Changes a-foot

Author: Labrug
Date: 28/01/2010 - 16:30

This and Previous Years have seen four volunteers go and see all the shows that have submitted to the Awards. Next year I think it is 4 for Plays, 3 for musicals.

EDIT make that 3 for plays 2 for musicals and one who is seeing ALL!!!

Absit invidia (and DFT No no no )

Jeff Watkins
SN Profile
Photographer
Community Spirit

Have you considered this?

Author: Norma
Date: 29/01/2010 - 12:46

One of our adjudicators, at the end of last year did some calculations on what it would cost to pay "minimum professional rates"- pretty accurate Robert!

I don't think there are many knights in shining armour around these days tho!!

And yes, we have found over the years that 'a professional' is willing to Adjudicate Dramafest at a very small fee, for which we have always been grateful for their support, but a whole year?????? that's another dimension.

Apples vs Oranges

Author: Labrug
Date: 28/01/2010 - 14:11

Picking up on W. Pennypincher (great calc by the way)...

The one acts are all presented in a single weekend, at a single location usually hosted by a Community Theatre Group (keeps costs down) and from what I understand, the professionals are willing to volunteer (I could be wrong here) their time to support the cause.

Try getting (as WP points out) a professional to voluntarily commit to a full year of between 40 to 50+ plus shows, dotted between Kalgoorlie, through Perth to Albany. They won't do it and I wouldn't blame them. It is hard enough to find volunteers from the Community scene!

You cannot compare the One Act State Festival to the Finley's. They are not in the same league.

In the end, as many of the regulars have pointed out, It's about the theatre, not the awards.

Absit invidia (and DFT No no no )

Jeff Watkins
SN Profile
Photographer
Community Spirit

Personally I think...

Author: jessmess
Date: 30/01/2010 - 10:59

Dramafest is far less 'fair' than the finleys and way more subjective. For one thing it is one 'professional' persons subjective opinion, instead of four hardworking volunteers subjective opinions. Clearly that is going to be less fair.

Secondly, even if the finley judges aren't necessarily the best qualified for the job (as one finley judge said to me after the awards, that they felt totally out of their league) they do it for free, and a lot of the travel expences are out of their own pocket.

And last but not least, there will always be people who disagree. My vavourite tv show is star trek voyager. Do I go around telling everyone I know that should invest in watching all seven seasons because no matter who they are they will love it? Actually I never ever tell people to watch it. I'm aware that i like it for my own reasons, most of them sentimental and everyone else will disagree with how 'amazing' it is. How can we ever expect, oh say the over 400 people who attended the finleys to all agree with every decision four people made?

A suggestion could be a peoples choice award, which is something I think could be valuable for both the finleys and dramafest. If i can go to the AGM then I will and suggest it. Maybe then everyone who feels 'hard done by' can stop whinging when they still don't win. Smiling

Actually I've found in

Author: grantwatson
Date: 30/01/2010 - 12:16

Actually I've found in other awards that a group of four people on a jury are generally *less* fair than a single adjudicator. Why? Because when four (or three, or five) people try to get together and pick their favourite play of the year, generally none of them are going to agree.

So Judge A likes Play 1, Judge B likes Play 2, Judge C likes Play 3. Neither of them like each other's favourite play, so in the end after some debate they compromise and pick Play 4, which isn't *anybody's* favourite, but is a good solid play that none of them feel ashamed giving an award to. As a result, the award doesn't go to the best play of the year, just the best "safe" play of the year. Innovation generally goes unacknowledged and lots of people in the industry or community bitch and gripe about how "the best things never win".

Obviously I don't know the Finley Adjudicators from a bar of soap, so have no idea whether this sort of thing happens with any of the Finley categories - but if they didn't, then I would actually be remarkably surprised.

My two cents worth

Author: jmuzz
Date: 28/01/2010 - 11:33

I'm gonna keep harping on about this until it sinks in.

Garreth, I believe you are genuinely expressing views you hold. Based on past posts I'm not sure you should be labelled a troll. This is a democratic forum after all.

I disagree with a lot of what you say. Let me explain why. It was my observation that the majority (perhaps all?) of the people who attended last Saturday had a great time. It is also my observation that the majority of the negative comments come from those who expressly write that they have not or will not attend the Finleys because of some gripe they have. Eliot, for instance, just doesn't believe in encouraging competitiveness in community theatre. Fair enough. That's his view. Others allege bias. Fair enough - I'd like irrefutable evidence, but fair enough. It's their choice to stay away. What gets me though is that a few naysayers believe they speak for some majority. Hang on a tick Garreth - there were over 400 people at the Finleys on Saturday. That's a helluva minority we got there.

Why were over 400 people in attendance? Was it because they hoped to win an award or watch a friend receive one? Perhaps.
I'll tell you why I was there. I (briefly) caught up with friends from kalgoorlie, Garrick, Playlovers, Melville, Stirling, Old Mill, Roleystone, Darlington, Warwick....I'm probably missing a couple here but you get the idea. I can't think of any other event (other than perhaps Dramafest) where I can catch up with old friends like that. Can you?

F**k the awards!! People grumble about bias, quality of judges, leaked lists. May I politely suggest these are complaints promulgated by either an oversupply or undersupply of personal ego. Is it really so important to win a Finley? If you're happy with your performance and what the public saw and their feedback (I'm in total agreement with Eliot on that point) then you have grasped what it's about. The moment you complain about the Finleys you open yourself to allegations of egotism because they really aren't that important to argue about. For God's sake they're meant to be a bit of fun people - nothing more, nothing less. FUN!!!!
It's the people who argue about their merit that are the fools. You missed the point. The rest of us simply enjoy the night and catching up with or meeting new people with similar interests. We understand that the awards are subjective - it doesn't make them any less fun. Scott who won the best musical actor award obviously did an outstanding job in Sweeney Todd even just based on the excerpt at the awards itself. I could make the argument that Lachlan Bain in Spelling Bee was equally worthy of the award having seen him act, sing and dance his way across the stage at Playlovers. I'm still very happy for Scott and I dare anyone to begrudge him his moment. No one with an ounce of maturity would. What a truly splendid thing it was to see him receive his award and his genuine astonishment at getting the accolade. However, if you ask him, what was greater? - receiving a Finley or getting the acclaim of the audiences at Roleystone? Probably the latter I would suggest.

The Finleys are fun if you allow them to be. The only egos I've ever detected in regards to the issue of the Finleys seems to be in the corner of those who allow a fun night to engender negative thoughts in their heads. Calling them into question simply shows that you are taking them waaaaaay too seriously.

You ask why are we here?
We're here to entertain audiences and hopefully (hopefully)have some fun along the way. With few exceptions and from my observations over the last four years, that's all that was on the minds of the performers as well. A Finley is simply another acknowledgment of a job well done. I can't recall a Finley having been handed out in those major categories for a job done badly - if the winner is, in yours or mine opinion, of lesser merit than someone else, build a bridge and get over it because tomorrow the sun will rise as it always has.

Again jmuzz I must profess

Author: Bruschka
Date: 28/01/2010 - 12:33

Again jmuzz I must profess my love for you.
Your two cent encompass exactly what I have been wanting to say...

WooHoo!!

Author: MusicalMum
Date: 28/01/2010 - 12:40

...hear hear! See me, I just want to shake them by the shoulders and say "Get a grip and get a life!" Your choice of words is far more palatable! Eye-wink

Here Here!

Author: Tari-Xalyr
Date: 29/01/2010 - 22:57

Here Here! You've simply summed up all I had to say right there.

I usually do one or two plays a year total and they are not usually nominated. I've never been nominated. In the last 2yrs I've only ever known 3 people who were nominated. I go because where else are you going to be able to find so many theatre friends in one place in one night? It's difficult! It is simply a good night and the showcasing is great entertainment throughout the ceremony. A few drinks. A few friends (or a lot) and a few shiny things get passed around. Sounds like a good night for me.

I think the Finley's do well to bring the community together in one place. I don't enjoy the politics but it is still a showcase of the years achievements and memories shared.

We DO, do this because we love it. I do agree with Musical Mum also, we're more likely to tear our communnity apart - because that is what human civilisation does - builds itself up and tears itself down only to start all over again.

~ Tari

Inside every adult is the child that was and inside every child is the adult that will be. (John Connolly)

Hear Hear

Author: osullivankate
Date: 25/04/2010 - 13:49

I wholeheartedly agree with the above statements. Thankyou for summing it up so well.

I'd also like to add that I attended the Finleys in 2008 as part of a cast that had been nominated for the first time. The company were lucky to attain a number of awards, although we didn't expect to.
I think that the Finley's on the whole, regardless of how subjectively the awards are given out, give credit where credit is due to those people who put in a huge amount of effort over the course of the season(s) of the show(s) they are involved in. Of course "Best" is subjective, but the identification of the talent that those actors/directors/etc. possess is important in the encouragement of talent, especially amongst those who are potentially new to the world of Community Theatre.
I will continue to be involved in community theatre regardless of the politics involved and the opinions surrounding the Finley's. I love theatre too much to give it up, and I am sure there are those who agree with myself. I will also continue to go to the awards to both catch up with those people that I haven't seen in a while and to support the nominees for the year.

Only my honest opinion: I

Author: grantwatson
Date: 28/01/2010 - 13:41

Only my honest opinion: I don't remotely care about the Finleys. I went to the awards ceremony once and found it very boring. Even if nominated I wouldn't bother going to another Finley ceremony - they simply don't fall under my radar of interest.

That said, I don't care that they're there either. I certainly don't think people should abandon them if they enjoy them, and if others gain pride from winning them I'm happy for them.

What it's all about

Author: Lee Sheppard
Date: 28/01/2010 - 15:14

The greatest reward for me so far in Community Theatre was when I went through to the front of house after a performance of "Get Smart" and met one of the people who had come to see our modest little show.

She said that she had never been to a play before but loved our performance so much that she couldn't wait to see some more community theatre.

To me, THAT is what it's all about.

FYI

Author: Robert J Whyte
Date: 29/01/2010 - 01:49

I am Walter Pennypincher, for some reason I couldn't sign on to the computer I was using, and had to write what I was writing while I had the time.

Cheers

Robert

Why are we here? I suspect

Author: Tim Prosser
Date: 30/01/2010 - 00:42

Why are we here? I suspect it's because most of us like the sound of our own voices and to bask in applause for exercising them, myself included...until recently. I'm afraid that now even I'm growing bored. I don't want to, but I think I am. For the love of it? For the warm glow of belonging to a community? Well, that's all very nice...as long as you belong to the right one. I enjoy the Finleys, in my own fairly unobtrusive way, and I like to see genuine talent recognised, as it invariably is, but I'm not blind to the fact that popularity is a substantial yardstick by which success is measured by our peers. That's just life in the modern world. Is it not?

When the audience have expressed their pleasure to you after the show and then gone home in jolly spirits, and you sadly note that, yet again, none of your theatre friends were amongst them, you can't help but wonder just how supportive this so-called community really is. But then, it's probably best not to worry about popularity contests and leave them to those who thrive on them. You did what you set out to do. You entertained an audience...and that's all that really matters.

I'll crawl back under my rock now.

Per Ardua Ad Astra

I agree Tim ,I have been

Author: Robert J Whyte
Date: 30/01/2010 - 02:40

I agree Tim ,I have been around long enough to know those whose opinion to take on board and who to take with a grain of salt.

If I am happy with what I have done and think I have done the best I possibly can, then that's the only validation I need.

That's not to say I think I know it all, because I do not, everything I do I learn something more, and I am willing to share it, if people choose to listen or not is up to them.

I didn't serve as an adjudicator as an ego trip, I did it because I wanted to give something back to a hobby that gave me so much, both personally and vocationally.

Regards

Robert (from Freo Emergency)

"Some people truly think, some people think that they think and some people would rather die than think."

So, from what I have read

Author: Garreth
Date: 30/01/2010 - 12:14

So, from what I have read in all these points the general view condensed right down seems to be this:

"The awards don't matter so much, they are just a bit of fun what does matter however, is the opportunity to come together and celebrate a year in the community as a community."

If this is the case I need to ask a few questions. Do we NEED to hand out awards? Do we NEED to ask members of this community to put in alot of time and effort just to be sniped at and have their integrity questioned by a few trolls out there all in sake of "a bit of fun"? Do we NEED to have an event that gives rise to a resentment amongst any members of the community?

If we don't need to, then we must ask do we WANT to? And if we don't WANT to, why are we doing it?

As has been previously suggested perhaps it would be a far better and healthier thing to leave the awards out of it and have a community showcase, a chance for people to come together and celebrate what they and others have achieved over the last year. Why would this not be a better approach of celebrating achievement in this community?

Further to this: Are the judges notes ever published?

Too condensed Garreth

Author: jmuzz
Date: 02/02/2010 - 12:14

I think you're missing the point Garreth. Whilst some people such as myself don't strive for awards or awards ceremonies, there's no denying their popularity which means a lot of people do. The clubs themselves seem to want them to continue - they keep paying the entry fees. Additionally, and this could be a generalism, the musical theatre crowd (judging by the reactions to nominees and winners) really DO want them to continue. They screamed, they roared, they shouted, they whooped. Maybe it's a generational thing - the young'uns really seem to like dressing up, getting together, celebrating success and excellence.
I think you need to examine the people who snipe at the awards. The vast majority are posting anonymously so I'm sorry...I can't take them seriously - they could be trolls who aren't even connected to theatre. For the rest it seems to be an easy fix - stay away if you're not interested like Mr Watson and Mr McCann. Whilst they aren't supportive of the awards, I haven't seen them postulate an argument I can support that says the awards are detrimental to Perth theatre. In fact I haven't seen anybody put forward a convincing argument as to how the awards "damage" Perth theatre other than to suggest a few people get their noses out of joint...probably because they weren't nominated or didn't win.
The point of my post Garreth was to put forward a case for saying "Why, for God's sake, let the awards BE an issue - why not embrace them as a bit of fun, a night out. Leave your ego at home and just frickin' chill". I don't understand WHY that's so difficult to do I really don't.
You got a long way to go to make me accept your argument whilst the clubs themselves keep sending those entries in.
Over to you Garreth - I'm enjoying the debate and sincerely hope you accept I'm not picking a fight. I admire the fact that you're promoting discussion AND putting your name to your post. More power to you.

Well...

Author: Labrug
Date: 02/02/2010 - 12:21

You said "I don't understand WHY that's so difficult to do I really don't."

I personally don't think it is a matter of being too difficult because it clearly isn't. Enough people out there demonstrate that.

What I find and believe is that there is a small minority who, for what ever personal reason, just simply want to complain, about something, and they will attack the most obvious and available thing that they can.

We all have our own little passions, fetishes, drives and what-not. Some are just a little more ... abrasive than others.

Absit invidia (and DFT No no no )

Jeff Watkins
SN Profile
Photographer
Community Spirit

I think a community theatre showcase is a great idea....

Author: MusicalMum
Date: 30/01/2010 - 12:53

I'd much rather this than the Finleys or any awards based competition. A true celebration of the work of the year and still providing the coming together of the community that many have said is the main draw card for them. Maybe you could have a combo of live performance and film of productions in performance.

And imagine life without what appears to be the enormous amount of stress, angst and negativity of running the Finleys! Imagine how much time would be freed up to work on endeavours that foster creativity and stronger community. I am sure that no one involved in the running the process would miss it at all!

Personally I think 'People's Choice' type scenarios would actually be even worse for the community. At the end of the day, the vast majority vote not on the production they liked best, but on which people they like best (as people, not as performers).

Plus, can you imagine the nightmare of setting up a process? So many productions are so poorly attended; frequently the 'best' productions are the most poorly attended; because people will attend in the first instance productions of people they 'like' and secondly productions they have heard of and/or like.

So I can't see how you could possibly set up a system that would be at truly reflective of what 'the people' enjoyed the most. It would be too skewed by popularity of personalities and a fairly 'closed-minded' attitude to the new and/or unknown that is reasonably prevalent in Perth.

If you can't win just sue 'm!

Author: JoeMc
Date: 31/01/2010 - 06:57

If you can't win just sue 'm!

Pohmy alent quest failed contestant swears out complant.

http://www.iinet.net.au/customers/news/articles/1005968.html

Gawd are the POHM's becoming as sue crazy litigents as bad as the Septic's, with a Solicitor on every corner [what a novel idea]?

Sorry - Had to do this...

Author: Labrug
Date: 31/01/2010 - 16:51

Absit invidia (and DFT No no no )

Jeff Watkins
SN Profile
Photographer
Community Spirit

Duplicate post

Author: JoeMc
Date: 31/01/2010 - 06:58

duplicate post

Why Are We Here?

Comment viewing options