Directors - Acting and Concept and writing.

Logos | 16/09/2008 - 13:08

A couple of posts on one of the Beauty and The Beast threads have inspired me to write this thread. Both of them relate to directors and their role in the shows we do.
First of all the should a Director be in a show. Lots of people have already said a lot on this subject on that thread but having my own view I thought I'd comment. I have to say that I think it takes a brave Director to appear in a show they are directing. You may believe you are giving a great performance but if we were really capable of doing that without direction then we wouldn't need Directors we would just put a cast together and let them get on with it. It is not clear from the comments whether or not the show in question had an AD, under those circumstances then fine but really why are you doing it? Is there really no one better than you available to do the role? If you really believe that then you maybe need to re examine your ego. I've done it once and I felt truly lost on stage when I was there. I had no control over what was happening and it made me nervous. OK there are occasions when you have to step in to replace someone but that's a special circumstance.
Second the point that came up about performing a role exactly based on someone else's performance. I have noticed this becoming a more and more common situation. Of course I have never seen a performance of "Little Shop of Horrors" that isn't an exact copy of the film and I don't go anymore but more and more I believe we are seeing Directors concepts that boil down to "Lets do it exactly the same as the film." I know a Director in Adelaide who hasn't directed a show that hasn't been a film for years and each show is based very closely on the film.
I find this horrifying. Does anyone else. Shouldn't we be approaching shows with an intent to direct them with our own special focus. Shouldn't our concept be something other than "Do this role exactly like so and so did. That's the right way to do it." There is of course another point here. Design concepts and choreography are copyrightable and remain the property of the designer and choreographer. Someone was once successfully sued for copying Bob Fosse's choreography from Pippin. An amateur company as well.
Lastly this is different but is associated. Writers directing their own work. I do it but I have strong reservations. I had been a director for a long time before I started writing and had directed a number of other peoples new works with all that entails. I also feel that I can stand back and make dispassionate judgements of my writing. Actually you have to be brutal with yourself and work with listen to actors who are tough enough to tell you you've written c**p and you need to change it.
Anyway any comments from anyone now I've had my little rant.

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Exceptions

Author: Labrug
Date: 16/09/2008 - 14:25

There are always exceptions to every rule which is where opinion and points of view come into play. I agree with the idea that if a director is to appear in his own play, then he requires the point of view of an assistant director. When doing Quality Street, due to cast members getting well paid jobs at the mines, I was forced to take on one of the smaller roles. I took this on with the understanding that the rest of the cast were to direct me. I needed their point of view on my performance, blocking, characterisation etc. I think it worked well.

Sometimes circumstances make these instances unavoidable. As for writers directing, I can see (as I am sure you too can see Logos) that there are situations where this is almost necessary. I personally do not have any reservations as to directors acting or writers directing as long as it is not driven by selfish motivations such as arrogance and false pride. An actor who wants to play the lead role in a play that hasn't seen the light of day in years, or that no-one else is prepared to direct may feel it necessary to take on the challenge themselves. If they do it with respectability and consideration, then I support their courage.

As for playing to a pre-defined character, I like the challenge of creating something new, unexpected and quite unique on stage. Then again, if you are specifically creating a bums-on-seats show, then a level of familiarity can really make a difference. Take ballet. The Nutcracker has been done thousands of times and quite often using the exact same dancing steps so much so that the lead, who has done the show many times before, doesn't need a days rehearsal. It's become almost memorised in their muscles. A recent Newspaper article about WA's new look Nutcracker talks about this very thing. Yet it is that familiarity that will have people come back again and again, like some poor lost Star Wars fan ("I've seen it a thousand times and I'm watching it again tonight..." - you know the type). For the actor, is can be a little mundane I would say yet for the audience...

Yet that should only really occur for the really well known productions such as Beauty and the Beast, Peter Pan and so forth, if at all. Then again, these shows have been re-written or have various versions, etc...

At the end of the day, what are you looking for - something to pay the bills, something that has definite ties to something else or real theatrical expression?

Recreating films as a side thought, why? They are different mediums. Even most films of theatrical productions have rarely attempted to recreate the stage play, so why should theatre. Obviously it is dependant on the objective of the director/producer.

Absit invidia

Jeff Watkins

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Good points well made

Author: Logos
Date: 16/09/2008 - 14:52

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

Although this probably

Author: Na
Date: 16/09/2008 - 15:10

Although this probably doesn't enhance the conversation, I would like to ask a question:

Are we talking amateur or pro? Does it matter?

... My reasoning for this is that I've worked any number of pro fringe shows, where the size of the cast/crew is no more than 5. In this case, it is usual that the performers have written their own script and because they are self-producing it, take on the role/s as director/s (perhaps appointing one person as the overall decision maker).

Working with one group in particular, they wrote the script and knew exactly how they wanted to present it. But being new to self-producing, they asked a friend to 'direct' (from what I gather, this person had done very little theatre and only really done a bit of film). This was a bad decision on their part, as I watched the actors get increasingly frustrated working with a director when they already instinctively knew how the show should be presented based on their creation of the script.

In this situation, there is a small number of people involved, and it is more collaborative than 'normal' shows.

I think the distinction is not am v. pro, but rather the hierachy and structure of the production itself; the bigger the cast/crew, the more likely you need 'one voice' to take control who is outside the cast. And of course, the more cooks, the harder it is for a collaborative piece to work.

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An interesting twist. In a

Author: Logos
Date: 16/09/2008 - 15:58

An interesting twist. In a truly collaborative work where perhaps one of the team is always available to be the "eyes", I mean of course taking it in turns, this could work. In fact that is very much how a group of Japanese friends of mine work. But that will only be true if the vision is truly shared through the whole group. There still needs to be some sort of engine driver.
I know that in the Pro world you will see one person shows described as being directed by the performer. In most of those cases where I have been involved that is only partially true. The Performer has a vision that he/she is committed to and uses another person to help with "keeping them honest".

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

When I did my first show

Author: Na
Date: 16/09/2008 - 17:09

When I did my first show with my company, the three of us (there were only 3) cowrote, directed and performed. Although each one of us has a certain area of responsibility, we each participate and generally agree on most things. In our particular case, it worked also because in puppetry you usually take turns in doing a number of characters, and we usually ended up with at least one person not actually performing in each scene. That person could then be the 'eyes'. I guess I'm lucky that I have a number of friends where this works, and works well.

I agree, I see more one-person performances where the actor obtains the assistance of a director or dramaturg to help them draw out the refinements in the acting.

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International blocking

Author: Logos
Date: 17/09/2008 - 12:07

Getting back to Jeff's points above relating to Nutcracker. There is of course what is called international blocking for opera and traditional choreography for Ballet. This allows big international stars like the Pavarotti's etc to fly from country to country and basically walk on stage and perform. Even this is going and now more productions of even traditional operas are being done with new staging and ballets with new choreography. The international blocking and choreography tends to be kept now for one off performances to cut down on expensive rehearsal time. I don't think this is the same thing that I am talking about at all.

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

directing and playing

Author: cal
Date: 17/09/2008 - 12:23

What about when the Assistant Director is also taking part in the production, as the lead no less.

Familiarity

Author: Labrug
Date: 17/09/2008 - 12:41

True except my point was more in terms of audience familiarity as opposed to choreography. What I am implying is the same level of familiarity that has audience coming again and again to see the same old shows rehashed for the umpteenth time;

The Importance of Being ...
Les Mis ...
The Sound of ...
G&S ...
so on.

The larger audience likes the feel of something they "know" which is why larger numbers will turn out to mainstream, done-to-death shows rather than see something by new local play-write Joe Bloggs, particularly if he is not into slap-stick comedies and nonsense.

Interestingly enough, I have heard comments about play-writes who (IMHO) write some pretty interesting drama, labelled as sounding "a bit too alternative" based purely on a poster and title.

To get a market share with something new or unheard of is a pretty hard slog for any theatre company, even one with a sound reputation. Doing something that is a replication of something familiar can often ensure good audience numbers, and from a business point of view, any theatre company has to balance new with established.

Doing a show like Beauty and the Beast, claiming it to be the Disney Version, then I would as an audience member EXPECT to see those very characters, not alternative interpretations. So would my daughter (who turned 7 last week) to whom familiarity would even more important "Daddy, they didn't do that in the movie. That's not right."

I like the challenge of creating something new, yet I also see the place and function for repeating the old. Everything in context, everything in moderation.

Absit invidia

Jeff Watkins

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Speaking of which... last

Author: Na
Date: 17/09/2008 - 13:56

Speaking of which... last year there was a production of Pirates of Penzance at the VAC (Vic Arts C.) and the poster depicted the lead character. I was immediately turned off: the lead was dressed exactly as Captain Jack Sparrow, right down to the colour of the beads in the hair.

Let's face it, audiences are lazy and don't want to risk spending money on shows they might not like.

I think it's a sad state of affairs for those (of us) who write plays that come from an odd angle.

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Blunt but ...

Author: Labrug
Date: 17/09/2008 - 16:00

"Let's face it, audiences are lazy and don't want to risk spending money on shows they might not like. "

Blunt but essentially true.

Absit invidia

Jeff Watkins

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Blunt...

Author: Na
Date: 17/09/2008 - 17:36

Me? Never! Eye-wink

It's so very very true. Otherwise we'd see more Beckett and less Shakespeare, more new Aussie plays than Brit/American imports... and why Aussie TV producers aren't shelling out on new content without kicking it to the curb after two or more episodes.

We can't blame companies for marketing to their audience (well, we can, but not too much) if their audience likes to watch fifteen million performances of My Fair Lady. That's just not good business sense.

I think we in the creative industries are more likely to take a chance, knowing that we may learn or enjoy in a new way. The last 10 movies I saw have been indie ones, not shown in large chains. I watch more and more shows that I wouldn't normally be interested in simply to try something new - if I don't like it, well, put it down to experience and try something else.

But the regular punter doesn't want a risk, they just want to be entertained and not have to think too much. (Yeah, I know, there are people who do want to think and do want more than that - but they're in the minority)

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Gorgeous commentary. What a

Author: Walter Plopping (not verified)
Date: 18/09/2008 - 08:11

Gorgeous commentary. What a truely tremendous site this is, I just love it! I honestly think it is amazing that the world of am-dram are so precious and picky about how different people approach productions etc...who cares if a director bases 'their' production on a film? Like wise, good on them if they decide to go with an original approach.

In the professional world of theatre there isn't nearly as much back stabbing and jealousy as there is here...it's very entertaining you really must keep it up, as it makes for great reading.

The role of the director on stage...I was once part of an am dram spectacle..'Pirates of Pens(z)ance' it was incredible. All the little maids were well into their 60's and the director played the lead despite the fact that he literally had to squeeze into the tight pants and high knee boots! It really was self indulgence (shameless) however, was bloody hilarious...obviously for all the wrong reasons!

"who cares if a director

Author: Na
Date: 18/09/2008 - 08:38

"who cares if a director bases 'their' production on a film?"

In the case of my seeing Captain Jack Sparrow in Penzance... well, I think the costume designer of Pirates of Caribbean might have something to say about it.

It shows lack of originality, an all too willingness to do it the 'done' way instead of taking the time to think about their own interpretation, etc etc.

Having said that, those who produce anything by Samuel Beckett know that they are under strict instructions (by the copyright owners) to produce the show exactly as it is described by him.

There are differences between different "approaches" to producing a show and not having one at all. One is thought out, and gives a 'nod' to other productions/directors/choreographers, and the other is not having thought about it.

A perfect example is the constant questioning on the net of where people can buy replicas of the muppets, anything from The Lion King musical and Avenue Q... honestly, why do people think it's ok to rip someone else's hard work?

(And no, I'm not am-dram... I'm strictly professional. And as a pro, I'd rather like to think that people have more respect for the hard work I do than to try to copy it right down to the nth degree)

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Well Walter, you obviously

Author: Logos
Date: 18/09/2008 - 08:25

Well Walter, you obviously have been around but frankly I haven't seen a production like that for many years. In fact the only time I have seen productions like that is in professional lampoons of the amateur world.
Try and get out a bit. After all sitting at home thinking up witty remarks must really take it out of you maybe a nice relaxing day out with your friend (if you have one) could refresh you.

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

In relation to the first post

Author: jessmess
Date: 18/09/2008 - 08:40

Goodness, me I've never really entered the fray before, but here goes. This discussion started bemoaning the lack of originality in theatrical productions, and criticisizing people who direct/act/write in the same production.

I'd like to point out that if we didn't have writers that directed their own productions, or small collaborative works we'd very rarely see anything original. Everyone has to start somewhere.

(I'd also like to point out that I prefer the weird to the mainstream, but then again I am a scifi geek who loves independent movies and bollywood...hmmm a scifi bollywood indie play...think of the possibilities)

Valid point

Author: Labrug
Date: 18/09/2008 - 08:51

That is certainly true Jess (and good to see you on Eye-wink and while I didn't get down to see your play Rain, congrats on what I hear was a great show.

Now, as for this scifi bollywood indie play ... I'm intrigued.

Absit invidia

Jeff Watkins

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A misread perhaps

Author: Logos
Date: 18/09/2008 - 09:27

I'd like to point out that I am not opposed to writers directing their own work, I do. I merely feel that if you do you need to be especially aware that new work needs editing and reworking. If it is your own it is easy (as I know myself) to hang on to bits that may need reworking.
I suspect that we probably would get along as I too love Scifi and Bollywood and Indie movies. I am also a big fan of Bhangra music.
My real intention with this thread was to attempt to start a discussion similar to those we used to have on this site that seem to have faded into arguments about reviews.

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

"scifi bollywood indie

Author: Na
Date: 18/09/2008 - 11:05

"scifi bollywood indie play"

I'd see that! ... Mmm, imagine David Tennant singing bollywood while being chased by Daleks.. Smiling

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18/09/2008 - 10:09 Walter Plopping (not verified) Logos, how rude...'sitting

18/09/2008 - 10:16 Walter Plopping (not verified) In response to na...you may

logos why did you delete my

Author: Walter Plopping (not verified)
Date: 18/09/2008 - 15:52

logos why did you delete my latest post?

Deleting Posts

Author: Labrug
Date: 18/09/2008 - 16:00

None of the registered uses can delete another's a post - note that - NONE!!

Only the systems Admin Officer can actually delete posts as such, and Na is not an Admin Officer. Only Grant is.

However, I do believe the posts flagged as Utter Rubbish by Moderators can be effectively deleted by hiding them from mainstream users. Again the Admin Officer can choose to re-instate those posts.

Incidently, I have been on and off this site all day today (and most days) and do not recall any additional postings from Mr Plopping.

Absit invidia

Jeff Watkins

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18/09/2008 - 15:54 Walter walington (not verified) it wasnt lagos it was

What? In English please? I

Author: Na
Date: 18/09/2008 - 16:10

What? In English please?

I repeat: only the person who posted it in the first place can delete it.

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Only the person who made

Author: Na
Date: 18/09/2008 - 15:55

Only the person who made the post can delete it. They can, however, moderate it or report it as spam. The first makes the post 'hidden' (harder to find), the second removes it from view until the site admin has approved it/not approved it (in which case, yes it gets deleted). The site also automatically removes posts from view if it meets certain spam criteria; at which point it again goes to review of the site admin.

So if your post was deleted, it's probably got nothing to do with Logos. Moderated on the other hand... maybe.

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I didn't do it!

Author: Logos
Date: 18/09/2008 - 16:24

I didn't do it!

Jeff: There was another post mostly attacking Na. I was a bit puzzled when it vanished. I did label the posts the second to worse level but as I have my filter set on "All the rubbish" I should have seen it.

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

Reported

Author: Labrug
Date: 19/09/2008 - 09:08

There is another method of removal - Report as Spam. This flags a message for review but yet again the site admin most remove it.

There are also Spam Filters but these usually work before a posting goes up. My guess is that several people saw it and voted it down. That seems to be the only logical answer here but I can't confirm.

Absit invidia

Jeff Watkins

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I'm guessing this is the

Author: Na
Date: 19/09/2008 - 09:30

I'm guessing this is the post, and it was moderated down:

http://www.theatre.asn.au/comment/reply/32896/41098#comment-41098

Should I bother replying to someone who clearly hasn't checked my background? I don't do amateur, and only work in theatre when the job is paid; I do profit-share, but only with people I know and have worked with before. We may disagree on the term 'professional', but as I have not worked with any amateur group in the past 7 years, I think I'm entitled to the use of the term. Being here on an 'amateur' site is hardly going against that, since many other regulars work professionally too (Logos or Taurean for example). (I have yet to hear what your background is... care to enlighten us?)

What specifically about my views aren't 'professional'?

I'm not dictating, simply pointing out that there is a percentage of people out there who would rather see a show done to death than see something new. I think many of the professional playwrights would agree, seeing as most of them don't get their work shown regularly.

"Your entitled to your opinion big guy"

And you shouldn't assume I'm either big or a guy... Very arrogant really.

"Your 'professionalism'...what point are you making, why should people have 'respect' for the work you do?
I actually don't think your profeesional...sorry just my opinion (I think you made that bit up)."

I'm not saying people should respect me, but my work.

Eg. I can make a muppet that can stand up to close-ups on TV. It takes me a month of solid work and perhaps another two weeks to create a design. It would cost me thousands of dollars in labour. Does that give you the right to take the design, deconstruct it, reconstruct it, and then sell it to someone (without my permission)? No. I have every right to my designs and to my work not being ripped off just because some director thinks it will get bums on seats. That's illegal and recognised internationally as such.

If you were professional, then you would respect copyright laws, and see that taking Capt Jack Sparrow and putting it in Penzance is hardly creating a new modern context for a character; but stealing a copyrighted costume design.

Who cares? Everybody trying to make money in an industry that is cut throat enough (pun not intended). As I said, there's a difference between giving a nod and copying out of laziness.

As for moderating the post: no I did not. It was done so before I even got to it.

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19/09/2008 - 18:10 Walter Plopping (not verified) you can make a muppet???

I'm so scared. Yes,

Author: Na
Date: 19/09/2008 - 20:18

I'm so scared.

Yes, repeating yourself is an excellent argument; so excellent I'm bored.

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19/09/2008 - 20:23 Walter Plopping (not verified) scared? what? are you ok

Attention:Na/ Logos/ Jeff

Author: jmuzz
Date: 19/09/2008 - 21:48

Guys and gals, I was reading through your interesting discussion (God knows we get few enough here these days) and then suddenly it deteriorated into a Walter Pooping feedfest.
I've done my best recently to avoid leaving troll bait so I was disturbed to see you guys wasting time on this rather than continuing your debate.
Please....don't feed the monkey.....although it was amusing to see they hadn't picked up that you were a lady Na.
Now where had you gotten to before chaos descended?

I beg your pardon

Author: Logos
Date: 19/09/2008 - 21:48

Of course Captain Jack Sparrow's Costume design is copyrighted. You clearly have no understanding of intellectual rights. The design remains the sole property of the designer.

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

19/09/2008 - 18:36 Walter Plopping (not verified) na, just read other

Wow this deteriated fast...

Author: jessmess
Date: 19/09/2008 - 22:58

To Logos (whomever you are, whomever, whoever? hmm...) Sorry, on a re-read I get that you weren't criticizing writer directors. Although to be honest I think I just wanted the excuse to jump in and add my two cents after reading lots of these over the last year. Also to both Jeff and yourself...scifi, bollywood, indie...if you want to help me write it, bring it on. I see it now, a musical Doctor Who/Firefly feel, set in new delhi. Of course they would only sing songs by obscure indie bands, who I am not cool enough to list, or perhaps too cool...We'll write it, and Joss Whedon can make it into webseries.

Ooh ooh, I'll help....

Author: jmuzz
Date: 20/09/2008 - 06:50

...this is too crazy a concept to not get involved with.
Sontarans With Sitars....Invasion of the Onion Bagi.....Planet of the Poppadoms...Revenge of the Undercooked Chicken Korma (mmmmm, chicken korma, ahhhhhh).
The mind boggles........

Anyway, back to the more

Author: Logos
Date: 20/09/2008 - 08:57

Anyway, back to the more general topic of writers directing their own work.
There is of course a strong argument that a writer knows his/her own work better than any Director, on the other hand I know that I have missed important undercurrents in my own plays that I wasn't even aware that I had put there. That makes me sound like a stream of consciousness writer but I don't think I am. I think that sometimes my subconscious is perhaps stronger than I give it credit for.
I mean, and this is directed at other writer/directors, do you really sit down with the intention of putting all that imagery and sub text in. If that is an intention when you start don't you feel that your work perhaps becomes rather ... arch.
I feel that I write rather more basically than that. Maybe that's what is wrong with my work. I don't write a literary form of theatre I know that, I write what I rather hope are performable plays about people. Character driven rather than plot driven I guess.
I wait to see what might arise from this remark.

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

Back on track...

Author: jessmess
Date: 20/09/2008 - 17:38

You make a good point. I'm often surprised by the depth, and symbolism others pick on in my work, usually coming to the conclusion that I'm either more intelligent than I realised or more dense...

Then on the other hand, directing my own work has meant I've asked my actors to make character choices that were unexpected and different to what others would decide...because I tend to write from experience. My current work I couldn't hand to someone else, it's too personal, but most other things I've written I'd rather someone else directed it.

But then, I'm just starting out...so I figure my opinions are limited, even if readily given.

I'm with you, Tony. Now,

Author: jeffhansen
Date: 20/09/2008 - 19:33

I'm with you, Tony.

Now, I'm generalising here, so Jess, don't take this as a swipe at you. I think it is a mistake for writers to direct their own stuff without workshopping, or at least handing over to a trusted colleague with a red pen.

www.meltheco.org.au

Yes

Author: Logos
Date: 20/09/2008 - 21:02

Jess: Yes, I have often asked actors to make some difficult choices when I ask them to be in my plays. To play the not obvious role in a not obvious way.
Jeff: Of course the work needs to have been seen by people. My standard route and I think I've said this before is first to get the play read by a couple of people who's opinions I respect and to listen to what they have to say. Then I go through a rewrite. Then I do a public reading, them a rewrite. The maybe I go into rehearsal but a long rehearsal and I spend a lot of time with those finicky rewrites that you need to do. The actors that I am used to work with know that I invite comment and aren't afraid to give it.
Then it goes on.

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

21/09/2008 - 09:51 Walter Plopping (not verified) logos, when do you have

Possibly with the

Author: JoeMc
Date: 21/09/2008 - 13:13

Possibly with the realisation, Walter Plopping & most NV's, may wish to try one day:-

_{^{"BY FINDING A MANAGER & STOP HANDLING YOURSELVES!"}}

Good advice

Author: jessmess
Date: 21/09/2008 - 20:00

Thanks boys, good advice from both of you.

It takes a long time

Author: Logos
Date: 22/09/2008 - 08:48

Jess: You do realise that the process I described means that it has taken something like 4 years for a play to get from the initial idea to a final production. That's a full length play. One acters are shorter and on one occasion I've had a one act play jump right from readings by friends straight to performance.

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

Sometimes, they really really work...

Author: Jesse Fleay
Date: 22/09/2008 - 09:41

Sometimes they work well, sometimes they dont. You just keep writing, and eventually kick off. Sometimes you might not get what someone else is creating i guess, but there are elements in this world that can ensnare the mind so infinately, and make time stand still. There are archetypes that are so universal that they tap into the collective subconcious, and wake our repressed, hidden and unconcious thoughts. To me, and to a lot of other people I am studying with and working with, this is what theatre ultimately is about.