I'm afraid to say that unfortunately young people are probably more interested in going to see a Hollywood blockbuster than spending their time doing something more creative and worthwhile, like writing a play.

There seems to be somewhat of a taboo about the theatre amongst the younger population.
I attended a Q&A last night with William Zappa in Sydney, after his show 'Winter's Discontent' (which was brilliant, by the way) and he made an interesting point about pricing, and that theatre will never be as accessible as it should/could be if people have to pay $50-$80 to see a play. The price of a movie ticket is no more than $15.

I think its really important to educate our next generation on the importance of our art and why we do it. There is something really special about the 'shared experience' of going to the theatre, which you just cannot find in a cinema. Sadly, this seems to be being forgotten.

So in short answer to your question, I don't think it's the writing. I think its a lack of exposure to and understanding of the theatre in general that provides such poor responses and enthusiasm.

On several occasion on this site I have been vocal about my opinions on the literacy, grammatical and writing skills of young people who post on this site. I'm wondering if the lack of written plays submitted my 15 - 18 yr olds in the SAWT competition is, once again, indicitive of where general interest and proficiency in written English is at.

I agree with the points made by Libby regarding the accessibility of text based theatre for young audiences and their experience with it.

Penning a play takes time, technique and patience. The journey from page to stage can also be a long one. However, a video of you and your mates making up a dance, flashmobbing or 'whatevering' can be uploaded on the net, viewed, shared and commented on within minutes. The instant gratification generation may now view writing plays, months of rehearsing and then performing in a local hall as a relic of days past.

I'm sure that high school aged kids do love the idea of performing and creating their own work. Perhaps text based theatre is, unfortunately, just not the right medium to engage them in that process now.

Tulipa.

What a pile of rubbish. How many of you people have spoken to a young person lately, or even bothered to set foot inside a youth theatre company?

WA Youth Theatre Company has been devising and writing some very succesful new plays over the last three years.

ATYP has the wonderful Fresh Ink Program that is extremely popular.

Black Swan Theatre Company now also has a very vibrant and well populated young writers program.

These are the three examples which leap to mind, I am sure if I spent fifteen minutes on the net I could find a dozen more.

This quite frankly disguisting attitude of "oh no it's too late to engage our youth through the written word" is useless and absolutely deadly. Perhaps instead of sitting around with fingers up backsides pondering the witherto's and the whyfore's you should actively engage yourselves with young people and their culture.

You're talking about a group of individuals who have thousands of advertisements and youth programs thrust at them EVERY day, their interest is there, I can guarantee it, but if you are wondering why it is failing perhaps you should have a look at what you are doing to attract yound people.

Look at your local theatre community theatre companies, are they putting on anything of interest to the young people in their community or is it another bloody Ayckbourne comedy or boring as paint drying drama about domesticity? If that is the case why do you sit here pondering why young people don't go to the theatre anymore.

Their teachers bore them to death with it in highschool

The local theatre company puts on productions like "Sarah's Daughter: A tragicomedy in three parts"

The commercial theatre is elitist and tends to snob young people right out of the auditiorium; oh and when they do come it's usually with school, it's a forced trip on one of their very few nights off and when they get there they hear disparaging comments like "oh great, stuck behind these little f@#ks all night"

Oh and if you ask most kids what plays they think go on at the theatre a large majority of them think it's going to be like shakespeare: Long, boring and hard to understand.

So, the fault here does not lie with our youth, it lies squarely with the industry, the community and the schools.

Give a young person the right tools and the encouragement and watch them knock your socks off. They deserve better than this idiocy.

Also: Yes, I am aware that my off-the-cuff grammer is appauling

Kudos Garreth. Some very good points.

I find some of the comments on here quite presumptuous, if not downright offensive. As someone involved with the previously mentioned “Black Swan Young Writers’ Program”, I can tell you that there are young people out there who want to write for theatre. The problem is, however, opportunity.
Young writers have two options in WA.
1) Write for community theatre.

Garreth said:

- Look at your local theatre community theatre companies, are they putting on anything of interest to the young people in their community or is it another bloody Ayckbourne comedy or boring as paint drying drama about domesticity? If that is the case why do you sit here pondering why young people don't go to the theatre anymore.
He is absolutely right. Community theatre is (I am generalising here) tedious and archaic. And furthermore, committees seem to be populated by senior citizens whose opinions mirror those above. “Young people are illiterate”. “Young people are not interest”. I have written two plays for community theatre. I will never write one again. Why? Because for something that is allegedly ‘community’ based, it offers NO SUPPORT whatsoever for emerging writers. All I received was criticism from people who knew nothing about writing a play. And please not assume I am above criticism. I’m not. I want constructive feedback. I want to develop as an artist, but I am not going to receive what I need from some hobbyist in the bar of a community theatre.

2) Write professionally.

Like I said, I am in the Black Swan Young Writer’s Program”. This program was created by Adam Mitchell in order to establish a number of emerging writers onto the professional theatre scene. It’s a great program and I am thankful for being associated with it, but the chances of any of us getting a commission in the next few years are really low unfortunately. In a very conservative time in theatre, no one is prepared to take a chance on a new voice. The only option young writers have in WA is the Blue Room or self funded projects (which have a very low success of recouping costs).
So, what do we do? I don’t know. But one thing I would ask you is to consider these factors before engaging inane speculation.

Thanks,

Daniel Kershaw.

I'd like to make a couple of points.
First of all I was asking a question relating to others experience in getting young people to write for theatre. In our case with very few rules and a campaign that involved contact with every secondary school in SA we received not even one enquiry. That's right not one. That shows a lack of interest. Sorry Garreth and Daniel but it does.
We may not bother again. The chance was there and we offered it and it was rejected. Put a good light on that.

Secondly despite your slightly incoherent diatribe Garreth, I don't really get your point. Do you think you could stop spitting invective long enough to actually explain what was really wrong with my original post.
I was at a funding symposium last week where I was told that there is more money nationally available for young writers than is being taken up.
As someone who started writing in my 40's and despite much noise about emerging writers received no assistance at any point I would be interested in hearing how young people are disadvantaged. Or are you one of those who believes that only the young should be encouraged. An attitude that seems far too prevalent in this world.

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

A well-moderated retort to a highly passionate response.

There's life in us old dogs yet.

El

As a high school teacher, I would like to comment on a couple fo the assumptions being made and hopefully address some of the questions raised in the original post.

Are young people simply not interested in our art form any more or is it the writing that's an issue?

I believe that it is a mixture of both along with other issues.

Firstly, at least in the WA curriculum, play writing is not taught as a part of the English curriculum unless a teacher has a special interest in the area. Plays are quite complex to teach to high school students unless they have the background and experience, often built up in lower secondary schooling. So what we are talking about here is students being exposed to not only writing plays but seeing plays as well. When compared to other topic areas, for example "short stories" the play is not exposed to our young people in nearly as much detail as other forms of writing. In order for a student to understand the art form they first need exposure to it which is simply not happening for the majority of them.

At the moment I am undertaking a study into young people's experiences with Musical Theatre. In my research I have found that the average student by the end of year 12 will have seen 6 musicals, of which four will be school productions, one will be a filmed production (due largely to the increased popularity of movies such as High School Musical, Mamma Mia and Hairspray) and one will fall into the other category. Only one in forty highschool students will have seen a professional production of a musical. I would not believe that these figures would change all that much when we look at plays. Most high schools only take their upper secondary TEE students to professional productions of plays, this equates to approximately half of the Year 11 and 12 student population.

If then the average student is only seeing their first professional production when they are in Year 11 or 12 how can we then expect to teach them the intricacies of writing their own play. It is not that they have difficulties in the language or the construction of a play but more an issue of they haven't been exposed to plays enough for them to be at the forefront of their experience.

In terms of marketing to schools, essentially this is a writing competition so marketing to the English departments is the right move. Drama should also be included but essentially the skills of writing are taught in English not Drama. The problem there is, that English departments recieve literally hundreds of different competitions for writing every single year. As someone who has sat in on numerous English Department meetings I have to be honest in saying that these competitions are usually given only two minutes of discussion and it usually comes down to if the classroom teacher is interested and has time then we can do it.

Usually it is only the well known competitions or competitions that fit into the current curriculum that have a showing. For example Optus is running a competition on Shakespeare at the moment. The competition was announced just as our school's year 9 students were starting their study of Romeo and Juliet. The kids are doing the competition in class time submitting it both to the competition and as an in class assessment. You need to look at what is going to make things easier for classroom teachers.

May I also point out that a better option for publicity would be the Library department. They are the ones that make the displays and put up posters. They also happen to be the ones that push competitions the most in schools, at least in my experience.

In short then I guess what I am saying is:

1. Students are not interested in playwriting because they simply have not been exposed to it. It isn't an issue of "plays are boring" but that their exposure to plays are the three that they may read in school which usually includes at least one Shakespeare play (which as much as we may hate to admit actually confuses the children about what plays are all about- but that is another discussion). The average student doesn't know about amateur theatre or websites such as this, actually most drama teachers don't know about it either.

2. It isn't an issue of students not being interested in the artform but that they have a limited understanding of the artform (also they tend to avoid anything which may be deemed 'artform' so maybe we should all stop pretending to be so high and mighty). This needs to be address at a school based level.

3. Time. The issue was brought up that students don't have the time to enter things like this. The average year 11 and 12 student has on a weekly basis; school, part time work, homework, one extra curricular activity and one additional activity. That is a lot. This generation is so over exposed to opportunities that they really do try to do everything.

Okay I think I have gone on enough about this and I could continue on some more. Don't discount the kids of today and believe that they have no ability in the English language anymore. They are the future whether we like it or not and if we aren't willing to believe in them then how can they believe in themselves.

Just to point out the obvious but if Logos specifically and SAWT generally have a problem with young people they wouldn't have attempted to run a play writing competition for them, they'd have made it for "over 40's" or whatever age is deemed to be "not youth".

Just pointing that out.

"Life is too short to stuff a mushroom"

I like this debate.

I'm glad I didn't immediately weigh in after reading the first few points, because I see Garreth and Daniel jumped in with a lot of the points I was going to bring up.

But this doesn't mean I am siding against you, Logos. You pose a question that needs exploration. It would be safe to say your intentions are for the best outcome...there have been assumptions made on both sides as to how the approach appears to be working (or not working)...clearly the problem needs looking at from all sides.

My thoughts are that perhaps the approach through schools doesn't work because that immediately links it with SCHOOL. Theatre linked to school has too much of a bad reputation...it has traditionally been too easy to get a bad experience of theatre through poor teaching methods, boring homework, plays being read (sometimes not even performed) in class that were not properly understood, the inability to act them properly, substandard performances coming in to schools, being forced to watch plays you're not necessarily interested in, etc etc.
That's not to say there isn't extremely good work being done in schools - but you can't deny the cliché exists and is quite real.

Writing, too, is a lot like school. That makes it harder to drum up enthusiasm. And I agree, writing standards in general are substandard, and plays are complex to write well, so there is little to encourage students to believe they could have a good go, even if it crosses their minds.

Year 11 and 12 students are snowed under with a lot of other important stuff aimed to enable them to eventually join the workforce, and no one can say the Arts is a profitable venture - and theatre the least of all. So there's no motivation there at all to pursue writing for theatre.

Community theatres ARE mostly populated by older participants, and the artistic decisions are made based on that fact. I'm sure they all actively encourage getting younger people in, but it's straightaway a big hurdle to overcome. Most of them are little prepared for the needs and interests of young people...in most cases the self-driven young people who join community theatre learn to adopt the needs and interests of the older participants.

Libby concluded: "it's a lack of exposure to and understanding of the theatre in general that provides such poor responses and enthusiasm."

But that's not entirely correct. It's a lack of exposure to GOOD theatre. Theatre that they find relevant, and appropriate. And conversely, too much exposure to theatre that frankly is highly discouraging.

Also, we should be careful about being too precise about where we draw the lines between 'youth', 'age' and 'experience'. Tony, I think some of the flack you copped from Garreth's assumptions might even be linked to your photograph here - you certainly look like Methuselah!

And Tulipa complained about the literacy skills of young people submitting to her competition. I'm positive that's true - but it's an ASSUMPTION that it's a YOUNG person's problem! I read about 120 submissions to the Maj Monologues competition this year, and I can tell you that written literacy is NOT a guaranteed skill amongst adults either! We should stop pigeonholing this in the 'youth' category. Most of my peers on graduating highschool had appalling literacy...so it's a problem that most likely now affects everyone under 45 !

So, having pointed out some gross assumptions that may have made this argument flare up harsher than it should, do I have any positive suggestions?

I think perhaps the assumption that 'an interest in creating theatre should start with writing' is a flawed one. Plays aren't actually to do with the writing. They are to do with the here-and-now interaction between performers and audience. That's where it has to start.

Of course, writing is hugely important and necessary. But knowledge of writing does not help you learn about drama. Understanding how drama works is the first skill to acquire, and then you work backwards, honing your writing skills. Skilful writers know the effect they want to achieve onstage. But beginners need to experience more of what this effect is, and can be, before they can work on creating effective writing.

Plays don't actually need writers. They can be made up the hard way - or is it the easy way? - by getting up on your feet and learning to perform. Or if you have no inclination to act, by going out and seeing a lot of good theatre that excites and inspires you, and learning how the process works from an audience's perspective. (Remember, I said the interaction of actor and audience is what is required to learn about theatre. This takes time and application to acquire).
Later on, once you're hooked and enthusiastic, you can add advanced skills like good writing.

Perhaps the lack of response to the call for writers is more an indication that we haven't created a youth culture which is knowledgable about drama?

That's where I would start.

Besides the fact that drama is immediate, tactile, exciting, active, fun, social - all the things that it was implied above that 'young people would rather be doing' - it is actually the number one building block to put in place before you can look to create good writers, or attract them to a competition.

Cheers,
Craig

~<8>-/====\---------

It's a look I cultivate.

Look, I'm sixty (well more or less) but in my own defence I tend to spend most of my time with people much younger than me.

I am also a professional in this business. It is how I make my living.

Thank you Craig and Na you also have posted very valid points in response to my original question.

There will be another competition next year but it will be wider in it's age range and if there are enough entries will be divided into separate categories. I suspect however if that one fails we will not run another. Too much effort if we get no response.

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

There's far too much pressure on them to do well in subjects they have no interest or future in - so that their school can keep their place on the government Leaguer Board.

There's far too much pressure on them to do well in subjects they have no interest or future in - so that their school can keep their place on the government Leaguer Board.

I am a student in year 12 this year. one of my 5 subjects is theatre studies. I love this subject, period. . Unfortunatly, we year 12's are governed by an evil body known as VCAA and they set strict rules and regulations on what we are allowed to study and into how much depth we should study it, they also give us a timeline of about 9 months to cram into our brains everything that we need to know for the daunting examinations and countless assesment tasks. Anyone who has read a study design for any year 12 subject knows that 9 months is really not long enough to learn everything we are expected to know. Taking into account that most kids in year 12 are doing 5-6 subjects, which contain 8-12 assesment tasks and 1-2 examinations and 9 months to learn everything for these tasks... most of us simply don't have time to sit down, and write a play, and the rest of us are the ones doing science and commerce subjects that simply don't care. Thats your simple answer.

There you go!

I would have to agree somewhat with Daniel Kershaw. I too have written for Community Theatre, only to have the pieces rejected. One of the pieces was on the subject of mental illness, and the comment that I received was that the reading committee was 'concerned by the subject matter.'
Another was an extremely lowbrow comedy full of innuendo and, I admit, bad taste, but that was what it was SUPPOSED to be, and it was rejected for being too bawdy for our audiences.
I am in my 30's, and these rejections, for such reasons, have somewhat curbed my enthusiasm for writing for community theatre. Had I received constructive feedback (on character development, or storyline or timing) I may very well have been satisfied with these decisions. But to reject the plays on the basis of "our audience won't like them" is pretty downheartening.
I can only imagine what such rejection would do to a young person. I suspect they would raise their third finger to the whole institution and then go back to the blockbuster movies.
I am postulating now, but perhaps in order to get young playwrights at the Year 11 & 12 level involved, you could provide half or three-quarters of a written play, and invite writers to provide the ending. This way the call on their time is a little less, and they get an understanding of how the thing is written by reading the first half of it.
Or, have the thing performed & then get writers to write the ending....Just a suggestion - I have no idea if this would work in the real world!!!

Jeff, I am half-inclined to give a "hear hear" to your comments but then a lot of plays receive good audiences despite the audience knowing little or nothing about the playwright or the content of the play. I suspect a large number of people who attended "The Pillowman" at Playlovers or dare I say it "The Boys" at Old Mill this year knew sweet nothing about what it was they were about to see.
I submit that both productions had the potential to alienate their regular attendees due to the nature of the content.
So why were they approved by the repsective committees? Guess you'd have to ask them.
The point is that I doubt you could state that either play fitted the normal demographic of both those theatres.
This leads to me embrace the idea that whilst theatre committees in Perth will happily mount a locally written one-act for what is traditionally a low-attendance season anyway, they may baulk at allowing such a thing for one of the full season slots.
Assuming that an audience may not embrace a locally written play assumes your audience is familiar enough with theatre to know IF a play is locally written or not. And I'm not sure that's the case by and large. My observation is that a lot of theatres have a large loyal local (hows that for alliteration) fanbase who would turn up to the opening of a can of peaches.
Declining a locally written play based on CONTENT alone seems a little puzzling given the two examples I listed above.
Are we sure we know the appetites of our audience beyond the fact that if we mount yet another production of Earnest they will attend in droves?

Bree and Daniel - I'm half in your camp as well. I do think amateur theatre should be about encouraging writers as much as it does actors or budding directors or tech staff but I am a finance guy and I do know that theatres will be inclined to go with "safe" choices in the face of rising costs. Used to be that a theatre occupied its space on the basis of a peppercorn rent - this is not the case anymore - they HAVE to make money. The question I would raise is whether you've canvassed enough theatres? I can think of one or two who will never in a million years mount a play you write over and above traditional farce or drama. There is no point railing against that - that's the facts Jack (Bree, theres one very close to you for example).
Not ALL theatres are populated by "senior citizens" - isn't Phil Barnett, Danni Ashton, and a few other young-uns on the committee at Old Mill? (by young I'm suggesting people under 40).
Jeff Hansen at Melville would probably take exception to being called a senior citizen.
Whilst Stinger himself would not dare to call himself a spring chicken these days, doesn't Phoenix open its arms to Johnny Grimm and his locally written tales of madness?
Is ANYONE active on Black Yak's committee over the age of 35 or even 30 for that matter? Did they not mount Brown Acid - a full length locally written play just last year?
Let's be careful not to generalise - I think it may depend on where you are placing your scripts as to how successful you are at having it accepted.
Having said all that I firmly believe the truth is that encouragement of local young talent and the basic financial needs of community theatres is a very very delicate balancing act. I hope neither Bree or Daniel is lost to community theatre although I suspect in Daniel's case, that train may have left.

"although I suspect in Daniel's case, that train may have left".

I got my ticket and everything. See ya!

Well, I was thinking of writing Black Yak a one act, just for practice you know. We shall see how the year progresses.

You have important lunches at The Brisbane to attend ;)-

I'm thinking of doing Romeo and Juliet...but in denim and changing the dialogue so it sounds "street"?

No?

Okay...

This has gone off in all sort of directions.
As the Chairman of the SA Writers Theatre I would love to be able to convince local companies to produce locally written work. It tends to be an uphill struggle.
As a small scale producer I only produce new local work with mixed success.
Oh to be independently wealthy.

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au