Couldn't agree more!

>>I think the Bible is a far superior work to any mentioned so far. I am sure there are more quotes from that source in modern English than from WS.

William Shakespeare is popularly believed to have contributed more new phrases to common-usage English than any other source...including words he made up. Samuel Johnson's 'A Dictionary Of The English Language' - the first standard English dictionary, published in 1755 - quotes Shakespeare more than any other author. Then it all really spreads from there.
Authors, poets, composers, painters, artists of all kinds since then have been unavoidably influenced by his work. 'Modern English' has been ingrained with his influence since its development, which is why he is still regarded (rightly or wrongly) as such an important component.

Yes, the Bible is a good and obvious example of a text that has been more far-reaching, and used as an inspiration for a collosal amount of popular culture. Shakespeare himself uses it as an influence.

But when you consider WS died in 1616, having exerted considerable influence for 30 years on the development of modern English; and that the King James translation of the Bible (the first version in English) was not published until 1611....there's a good chance that any modern English quotes from the Bible we know today may have actually been influenced by Shakespeare's language!

As for being 'far superior'...I guess you are talking in a general sense, but in the context of this discussion on a theatre forum, I'd disagree. While there are some terrific characters, many memorable scenes, and the basis of a couple of catchy musicals, the scene transitions are too long and it's all too repetitive and predictable. If I had to sit through a performance of the whole Bible, I'd probably have walked out around the Book of Nehemiah.

Cheers,
Craig

~<8>-/====\---------

that much of the bible is based on the Torah... (well, you know, one part of it anyway)

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Right let's not forget it - but what has that got to do with anything?

"Tora Tora Tora!" [from the film title being japanese for 'Attack Attack Attack!"]

Please note 'No', that I have emailed you and reported you to the site admin: you are using my copyrighted image, and I would like you to remove it as an avatar. While I respect your right to satirise me and criticise me, you have no right to use my logo for that, particularly as it's my business logo.

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Bravo Craig!

Thank you fot those intersting historical facts, Craig.

The Writer is a child forever listening at the keyhole of the adult world.

Thanks.
It's not often that I get appreciated for talking so much shit.

Cheers,
Craig

~<8>-/====\---------

I think it says you give your kids a balanced education.

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Thinking Hamlet's crap? That's a bold minority you sit in there, and bless you for it. : )

Out of interest, if you think Hamlet is crap (which is fine) which ones do you like?

Well, superstitious or not, I don't think it quite qualifies as 'uttering' if it's posted on a website, does it?

Everyone's typing away in silence here. The voices are all in our heads.

Cheers,
Craig

~<8>-/====\---------

Unless Jeff runs around this website 3 times, maybe nobody will turn up to his auditions next Saturday.

Ssstinger>>>

Hehehe. Looks like I'm in trouble then.

www.meltheco.org.au

Jeff don't forget to spit over your Left shoulder [being the devils side] & then knock on the door!  

 MacBe'h!

"Without our traditions, we would be just like a - like a fiddler on the roof?"

Here's where we think the whole Macbeth superstition came from. Being Shakespeare's shortest play and the one with arguably the most violence (except for Titus Andronicus) it was always guarenteed to draw a crowd. So when rep. companies were facing hard time financially they would do a revival of Macbeth in order to generate some income quick. However due to lack of funds the play was quite often badly rehearsed and with loads of fight scenes it really was an accident waiting to happen... and it did. So Actors being the wonderful superstitious creatures that they are and sailors (back in the day they would have also had sailors who were on leave as Crew (Which is why its called crew, rigging etc.))who were worse probably came to the conclusion due to the "infernal" utterances of the play that it was cursed by bad spirits.

Having said all this without exception every time someone has uttered macbeth in a theatre or in rehearsal the show has then been plagued by a large number of mishaps... for example Freddy Badgery and I were doing The Tempest and back stage cast members had been uttering Macbeth and low and behold that night the lights in explicably went out, I nearly fell down a large whole and there was a loose nail which jammed itself intoa cast members foot... then again we were at rechabites!!!

Anyway out of respect to my fellow actors and my predecessors(sp?) I will not utter Macbeth. Besides everyone loves a Ghost story and who are we to ruin it for them!

One of the best good luck charms I've ever used onstage is saying "Good Luck MacBeth" prior to the show starting. I've never had a problem onstage since using it....

Another girlfriend said it originally as a stir and it's been FANTASTIC....

My two cents worth....

That I would suggest is for others to judge...

Or it could just be that theatre is a dangerous environment anyway? And that there might be a thing called self-fulfilling prophecies?

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Or you need to do some maintenance and develop better workplace methods.

Yes, and that too

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Snap, Logos. I was fortunate to direct that play in the New Fortune Theatre in 1997.

The experience was unmarred except for an early omen and a single incident. 

The climactic confrontation was a tightly choreographed piece that included a moment where Macbeth throws down his sword refusing to fight. Undeterred, Banquo charges across the stage at the unarmed Macbeth, his sword raised and makes a downward slash as Macbeth performs a forward roll retrieving his sword to rise behind Banquo. The downward slash neatly masked the fact that Macbeth's forward roll occured a good metre upstage and well clear of the charging Banquo. Worked a treat for the first couple of weeks but returning for a later performance I was concerned to see the downward slash slipping sideways in danger of becoming a swipe at Macbeth's legs as they flew through the air in the roll.

I called in the fight choreographer for some remedial work with the actors. In spite of this work, on the closing night, an enthusiastic Banquo swiped again at Macbeth's legs with a heavy steel sword smashing into the back of Macbeth's calf. Thankfully Macbeth was wearing a sturdy pair of boots that reduced the impact to severe bruising. His howls of rage as he climbed the stairs and was chased off across the balcony had a particular edge that night. He needed to be supported on stage for his final curtain call but was back in to lend a hand with bump out the next day.

The early omen was, well, ominous. Our designer was preparing huge coloured banners and flags sporting devices based on the Macbeth heraldic crest. The early sketches included stylised suggestions of the crest but the designer was keen to research and employ the authentic item. I turned up to the workshop one day to pitch in and found her in the midst of painting a 1.5m image of my family crest on a 11 metre length of cloth. "No", she replied, "That's the Macbeth crest." And dragged a heavily bookmarked tome as evidence.

Macbeth and Malcolm clans share the same family crest.

Regards
Grant

--
Director, actor and administrator of this website

Grant, can I quote and use this in something I am doing regarding fight direction?

Absit invidia (and DFT )

Jeff Watkins

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I have to disagree with your example of Bells Macbeth being a great interpretation.
I thought Bells 'Macbeth' was unentertaining.
The direction was stagnant and Sean O'Shea (Macbeth) had no depth and understanding of his character. The pace was excruciatingly slow and the chemistry between Lady Macbeth and Macbeth was non-existent.
I was very disappointed at the time, as I thoroughly enjoyed Bells interpretation of 'A Midsummers Night Dream', which IS a great example of well done Shakespeare.

As opposed to shakespeare, ever loving, peacefull and blood free...

Given that the over-riding message of the bible is one of salvation through belief in a God of love I'd gently suggest Jesse that you've made the same mistake as those people we describe as fundamentalists or extremists.....you've read between the lines which is a little sloppy if you're going to write a book review.
I'm not a practising christian anymore but I take offence if you're going to sling poorly argued word-arrows at a major religion. That's a bigots attitude you got there and you should check that in and exchange it for a big helping of open-mindedness and tolerance.

People tend to underestimate the need to view a play rather than read it; I think it's our English classes that do it. We spend too much time analysing the stage directions and dialogue, and not enough time understanding that a play isn't like a novel.

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I'm not certain that I even really agree with the concept of play scripts being included in the term 'literature'. We don't read blueprints of a building and call them 'architecture'.
They are a design, not an end product, and I think that's why so many have had trouble in getting enthused by it when studying the texts in school.

Yes, a lot of Shakespeare's work is literary craftsmanship (the Sonnets and poems are the obvious example, but much shows through also in most of the plays).

But not ALL of each play is a 'cracking good read'....at least, not unless it is read ALOUD.

And then, the reading of such a text departs the world of the literary and becomes the world of the dramatic - which is usually beyond the reading skills of the average highschool reader.

(Or teacher).

Cheers,
Craig

~<8>-/====\---------

Reading aloud is of course what I meant.

Absit invidia (and DFT )

Jeff Watkins

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Widening the topic a bit (a lot actually), this is where the modern habit of using a dramaturge to tell a writer how to rewrite his plays falls down. I have been told several times that my work is far better on the stage than on the page. if you rewrite too much led by someone who hasn't heard your work spoken you can end up rewriting the heart out of it.
I must admit to being supremely suspicious of dramaturgy, after all they have their own agenda and it may clash with the playwrights. I prefer to organise and run my own readings with experienced actors and then rewrite from that.

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing.
www.tonymoore.id.au

I've done quite a bit of dramaturgical work with Shakespeare's plays - it's usually a bit of a drain on the audience's energy (and soreness of their bottoms) to always produce unexpurgated 3 1/2 hour epics every time. Working out what (and who) to cut is a fairly tricky business - and I'm sure I (and everyone else who's done it) have made a lot of mistakes in the process.

Having just had this exp. I agree whole heartedly!

The exact meaning of a Dramaturg (I've just tried looking it up) is a little bit vague. There are several definitions, some which I would describe more as an 'Artistic Programmer', responsible for choosing the plays in a company's season.

But my understanding and usage is that dramaturgy is defined as 'shaping a story or like elements into a form that can be acted'. Dramaturgy gives the work or the performance a structure. More than actual writing, a dramaturg's work might be closer defined as designing.

So I disagree with your notion that a dramaturg 'tells a writer how to rewrite his plays'. A dramaturg tells the writer how to make them work onstage. If this means the playwright then needs to edit or rewrite, so be it.
If the playwright has a different 'agenda', maybe s/he should be writing novels instead.

Yes, often a good playwright is effectively their own dramaturg. But having witnessed many scripts offered by writers who considered it 'performance-ready', only to then go through extensive change and redrafting before it was actually fit to be performed...I can attest that many playwrights (even established ones) benefit from someone acting as dramaturg (even if it means the director and actors) before it becomes a workable drama.

As I've said before a script isn't a play...it's a blueprint to give the builders. The writer shouldn't see it as a perfect finished product. If it was, it would be a piece of literature to be read and not to be performed. When really it's merely the first step of a work-in-progress.

And if the dramaturg isn't already conducting readings with experienced actors, they're probably not doing their job.

Cheers,
Craig

~<8>-/====\---------

(PS 'dramaturg' and 'dramaturge' seem to both be correct and interchangeable in the sources I looked up.)

"More than actual writing, a dramaturg's work might be closer defined as designing."

I'd say a dramaturg is more like an editor for theatre; the concepts are similar. An editor is there to help shape the novel, give advice on how to structure it, characters, development of ideas, and generally refine the work. Dramaturgy is not really that different.

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>>An editor is there to help shape the novel, give advice on how to structure it, characters, development of ideas, and generally refine the work.

So an editor's work on a novel might also be defined as designing.

Cheers,
Craig

~<8>-/====\---------

Not really. ... It's more nuanced than I make it sound. The writer is always the 'designer', the editor is just there to help polish it. I was always taught that as the editor, you can suggest changes, but ultimately the writer has veto power. Maybe editing is more like a consultant...

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>>I was always taught that as the editor, you can suggest changes, but ultimately the writer has veto power.

Tell that to any journalist.

Or film scriptwriter.

Or newly-published novelist.

And really, why should a playwright be more precious, when that medium more than any (well, on a par with film) is a collaborative process?

It would surely be a rare writer who can afford to be so secure as to insist on veto power. Or if they do, it's a rarer one again who's work is beyond improvement from outside eyes. Yes, many of them play writer/editor/dramaturg rolled into one, but if the roles are split for a reason, I would think the point would be to give them more power than mere consultancy.

Your model assumes a hierarchy with writer at the top of the ladder, passing it down to consultants who pass it back to the writer at the top until the work is finished...a piece of text.
I view it more as a horizontal timeline, where the work itself is what's important, and everyone passing it along contributes their skills at any stage until it gets to its final destination...a performance for an audience.

Feel free to edit me. and enjoy the feeling of power...!

Cheers,
Craig

~<8>-/====\---------

Ummm.... I've worked as a journalist. And I've written plays. And I've worked as both an editor and a proofreader. It is a nuanced collaboration (perhaps I haven't been clear in what I mean by the relationship between writer and editor), and if the editor is good, they will work with the playwright/writer; perhaps I've been lucky to only ever have good writers and editors to work with.

Yes there are heaps of editors and writers out there who argue constantly over how to write something; but the important thing is that at the end of the day, you can't force a writer to write something they don't want to do. If that were true, half of the novels out there wouldn't have been written or published anyway.

I'm not saying writers should be precious; I was referring to the idea that dramaturgs have the right to force a piece of writing down a road that the playwright doesn't agree with. There's a difference between arguing against a plot change that would completely change the meaning of the play - something that was told to me by a dramaturg - and arguing over whether or not a full stop is more appropriate than an exclamation point.

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Journalists often have their work re-written by a sub-editor and the first they know about it is when they see it in print.

Yes, Na, please don't think we are confusing proofreading with editing, or editing with dramaturgy. We're not.

I've worked as a journalist too, and once I'd submitted a story I certainly didn't have any power to veto what the editor did with it, how they titled it or whether they preserved the way it concluded. So I understand your parallel argument of a playwright being upset over anyone reforming their words. But I can't relate to your claim that a writer always retains the power. Without judging whether it's right or wrong, the fact is - They don't.

But the ONLY picture you paint of a dramaturg is someone FORCING a writer to do something against their will. And that's simply not always the case.

.

You said:
>>An editor is there to help shape the (novel), give advice on how to structure it, (characters), development of ideas, and generally refine the work.

...and I still say you have just defined the work of a designer. Put the word "creation", "ideas" or "components" where I have placed brackets. So therefore an editor is a designer. And a dramaturg is a designer. They DEVELOP A PLAN for presenting a product.
I don't agree with you that a writer is automatically a designer, although they can wear two hats. The primary function of the writer is to create that product. And then someone does the design.
(And yes, before you argue, I know it's not necessarily an A followed by B process...design can happen during the creative process. My simplified illustration is because I just don't think you get the point of dramaturgy as design).

It might help more to think not of 'a dramaturg' but in terms of 'TO dramaturg' - ie: not as a person, but as something you DO.

It's a process that usually needs to be done to a new script before it gets put on stage. Whether it's done by the playwright themselves in constant redrafting, or a group process, or an individual wearing a hat with 'D' on it is irrelevant.
What's important is to recognise that at some stage it needs to be thought of. Sometimes the writer has it covered instinctually, perhaps without even realising it. But it IS a separate aspect.

This topic has crossed into a new thread, so I'll refrain from repeating myself. See you there.

Cheers,
Craig

~<8>-/====\---------

DID YOU SAY THE 5,6,12 and 13th of December at Woodlake Amphitheatre, Ellenbrook and that I should call 0414 47 47 37 to book my tickets for this FREE performance and that I could find all the info here http://www.theatre.asn.au/production/2008/shakespeare_on_the_lake_the_taming_of_the_shrew ???

I will be there!

Yes, I DID say the 5th, 6th, 12th and 13th of December at Woodlake Amphitheatre, Ellenbrook and that you should call 0414 47 47 37 to book your tickets for this FREE performance and that you can find all the info here:

http://www.theatre.asn.au/production/2008/shakespeare_on_the_lake_the_taming_of_the_shrew

I will be there too!

freddie
the rocking jedi badger

What? Are you sure it's the 5th, 6th, 12th and 13th of December at Woodlake Amphitheatre, Ellenbrook and that you should call 0414 47 47 37 to book your tickets for this FREE performance. Well tickle me Fanny, I'll be there!

Yes I am sure, because I've just gone and looked at the Shakespeare on the Lake: The Taming if the Shrew poster!

Ooh! Aah! Taming of the Shrew poster!

freddie
the rocking jedi badger

The Taming IF the shrew? So old willie has written a new one, eh? He's a crafty old bugger!

I would love to direct SS, and espec 12th Night, Much Ado, etc... Only problem I would have is wanting to be doing one or more of the roles.

Absit invidia (and DFT )

Jeff Watkins

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Mesh recently put it on cleverly disguised as a musical featuring the songs of Elvis... does that count?

I've spent five minutes trying to work my way through that one and I'm not going to get any rest until gaafa antes up and tells us what the hell that means in english.

Come on jmuzz. It's as easy as double dutch.

Seriously, Gafaa, I get what you are saying and agree. There is something to be said for speaking SS in yokel speak rather than the Queen's best presentation english. Particularly scenes like the Grave Digger in Hamlet, the Constabulary in Much Ado and the pompish foppery of Toby and crew in 12th Night.

I also agree that those productions I have seen that have used a range of accents, tones and so forth add an extra dynamic and stops the play or reading from being too consistent.

Absit invidia (and DFT )

Jeff Watkins

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'Dee'n aa wor Willy' season.

"Doing an our Willy season" -'

Wor Willy' was also a comic strip character, in the Newcastle Evening chronicle newspaper. Available on Tyneside [NE UK]

He would invariably be seated on an up turned metal bucket, contemplating the questions at hand, from aspects raised.

Hence the link with the Bard.

Depending on how 'wor Willy' viewed it. Whether or not "the bard is bacon, or the bacon is the bard"?

It was going to drive me mad.
Oh, and Jeff, totally agree about employing different accents although Melissa raised an eyebrow when we did the reading of "As You Like It" and I employed a broad aussie twang for one of the characters. Shakespeare goes well with glaswegian accents as well so I've discovered. Fake french accent ala 'Allo 'Allo - not so good.

Usually performed at a secret venue & the punters bring the props, to be used in the show!

http://godwin.thisislondon.co.uk/2008/01/is-this-a-marro.html

Yes, I noticed that also. Pity they are all on AT THE SAME TIME!!!! Looks like I'll have to choose one. Actually, I think there may be more than 4 total. I don't think they are all listed...

Absit invidia (and DFT )

Jeff Watkins

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Oh dear. Looks like it's about to become The Battle of the Shakespearian.

Absit invidia (and DFT )

Jeff Watkins

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