Why so short? My info tells me that perhaps the production and organising team is rushed. I heard auditions were almost 'last minute' and not that well planned.

Besides, they could easily sell out the show in two weeks in Melbourne, tour to other cities.... but selling for longer might be harder or more of a financial risk.

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You may never have heard of it, but I've posted news on my site about it and I get 20-30 hits per day from people looking for news. People want to know if it's going to Sydney, Adelaide, Perth, and Brisbane - people want to know about the auditions for it, and people want to know who's producing it.

So you may not care, but some of us do. The season is short, and I highly doubt it will flop.

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I hate to disagree, but plenty of people outside the industry know about the show. If you think for one second a show that has been touring Singapore, London, Broadway, and elsewhere is 'unknown'.... By the way, they haven't started advertising yet, and most of the general public wouldn't know about a show until it's advertised anyway.

I haven't missed your point, I'm just choosing to disagree.

As for the two weeks comment: the only info I have about the season is that it's running for two weeks in Melbourne. No one has so far announced that it isn't going elsewhere in Australia. I am choosing also not to speculate on their production schedule or their budget. One would assume that they wouldn't bother touring here if they couldn't afford to do so.

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DFT. That's all I have to say.

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Puppets in Melbourne

By the way, you're assuming that the only target audience that will be going to see this show is MT people: what about those interested in puppetry? Henson's Puppet Up sold out when it came, even before the show opened and was picked up by most of the local media. Their season was infinitely shorter. Although puppetry in Australia is underrated and not much cared about by mainstream audiences, they did turn up for Puppet Up, because it's puppetry for adults, intelligent, and fun.

I'm not a producer (of large shows anyway) and am not going to comment on the issue of profitability given that I don't know enough about it to either give an intelligent answer or to satisfy your opinions.

DFT is an in joke. But in this case it means I don't care anymore in this argument. You seem intent on making a case, that's fine, but I thoroughly don't care what some anonymous person's opinion is of whether or not a show will flop. Go bug someone else.

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For someone who doesn't want Q to flop, you're certainly doing your very best to find every reason why it would - without providing many reasons why it could - and there are many!.

No-one is saying it's a sure bet, but it is a very good show and it is a totally different show to any other musical in town - and a LOT cheaper. It will appeal to a new age group and audience type that is not the norm for musicals - but this is not a normal show!

I was told by someone last week that the reason it has never been picked up by the major Australian producers is because it has always been too expensive to bring out to Australia because of the huge amount of royalties you have to pay the Americans. However this is a NEW production, so the royalty expenses are a lot lower.

I hope it does work. These are new young producers on the scene, and it is great to see them give it a go and put on a professional production and offer something totally different to audiences, and as people who are obviously interested in musicals and theatre, we should do all we can to support a new production that offers an alternative to the theatre scene around the country, instead of putting it down and closing it before we even really know all the facts and information about the production that will tour the country.

Comparing it to productions like Altar Boyz is not really that valid. Altar Boyz is an off-Broadway show, and I'm sure if it ever made the jump to Broadway, it would close in a matter of weeks.

Someone here said that Avenue Q should have been mounted at Chapel off Chapel, which is pretty ignorant, however I think this certainly should have been the case for Altar Boyz. The theatre it plays off-Broadway is not much bigger.

I like people critiquing and discussing the theatre, however people slamming things and criticising without knowing facts and before a show even opens really gets me!

We're a small industry, people! Support it!!!!!!

The only two things I will reply to:

My handle here 'Na' is short for Naomi. That has generally been a nickname of mine from family and friends, and I use it here. If you would care to view my profile, you can find my full name, which you can Google and easily find out my background. I do not hide my identity here or elsewhere on the internet.

As for DFT, you have misunderstood and misinterpreted. Without giving away the joke (it's not my injoke to explain), the 'f' does NOT represent the word fuck. It is something else entirely.

Thank you for the intelligent conversation, but I have other things to do now.

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F stands for "Feed", and that is all I shall say.

EDIT: Added new Category Term - hover mouse pointer over acronym.

Absit invidia (and DFT )

Jeff Watkins

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I believe they have finished casting - although that's more of a guess than anything else - but no news yet about the cast that I've seen. I'm going to take a very conservative guess and say that all of the cast will have worked with the big name puppetry companies (Polyglot, Snuff Puppets, Spare Parts, etc.) and will be well-known within the industry. Particularly because Sue Giles from Polyglot is working on the show, so I don't think we'll see many, if any, unknowns working on it.

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Really??? Don't Feed Trolls - calling someone who disagrees with you a "troll" - that's not abusive???

Plus, NA, you're wide of the mark re. casting.

Offers have gone out and, as far as I am aware, not one of them to a performer who is primarily a puppet person.

Where are Mitchell Butel's puppet credits???

You will find that the majority of cast members for Avenue Q are NOT puppet trained. Once the show is cast, they workshop with the puppets and learn how to use them. There were a couple of original Broadway cast members, who had work for Jim Henson/Sesame Street previously but the rest, and all of the London cast hadn't. It was not a pre-requisite for auditioning, just a plus. Like Starlight Express, you don't have to be able to skate, it's handy, but once cast you do full time skate school. Which I think is great as it gives everyone a chance, rather than just those with the particular skill!

Mitchell Butel? Oh dear. His default setting seems to be over the top campery. This is fine but not 100% of the time. Mitchell, now and then please pull back and let the script do the work.

I really question this whatthe? The low production cost, limited engagement approach has been tried and failed in melbourne again and again -

I Love You You're Perfect Now Change, Debbie Does Dallas, Altar Boys...

Don't forget, the set up cost mighn't be high, but moving a show and paying out of town loadings to the talent doesn't come cheap.

"You've yourself described Q as "...incredibly non-pc..." It won't attract families, or group bookers - senior cits., bowls clubs, etc..."

No, but it will attract young theatre goers under the age of 40.

Can we move on? You've quite clearly showed you disagree, and I don't think anyone is moving towards the middle. How about we wait until next year, after the show has been on, and then resume the argument? There's no way to win without proof of sales.

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I am willing to admit I don't know everything. Thankfully there are many out there more than willing to remind me when I forget!
It is also clear by my profile that I am in fact Perth based. and frankly, Perth and Queensland have the prize for conservatism in this country.
However, I still think a show like Q marketed properly and in the right-sized venue would be a success here (even Melbourne). Not a wicked/we will rock you/les mis/phantom kind of success, but a success nonetheless.

"1. Q is folding early on the West End. If you don't believe me, Google it."
Well, I saw it in the West End almost 2 years ago, when it had already been running for some time. So, maybe not such a bad run...certainly not a 'fold'.

"2. Into The Woods was a commercial hit on Broadway - ran about two years, turned a profit."
But very rarely anywhere else from what I've heard from many of the people I know who have done it. I don't doubt it's made money somewhere, and frankly deserves it. But anyone knows that Sondheim is not a big seller... Again, especially in Australia.

"4 Altar Boyz has run more than three and a half years in New York.
5. Altar Boyz won a Best Musical award - The Outer Critics Circle. This fact was used in publicity - a big part of their posters, but the show still flopped in Melbourne.
6. Far from not being "pop enough" Altar Boyz is all about pop - it concerns a pop group!"

and this is still all I know about this show. I'm sure it's great, but obviously didn't click with Aust audiences. Let's face it, not much does. Being about a pop group certainly explains why I've not heard about it. Anyone who knows me knows it would be a hard sell!

"7. Your average Melbourne theatre goer would not know what the Tony Awards are, let alone who won one. Tony Awards are of more interest to theatre people than the general public."
This would suprise me, but I'm willing to admit no local knowledge. However, there are many people in Perth who know what a Tony is.
Even if they don't, my point was more about the fact that they don't give Tony awards to s**t. Therefore perhaps this show is actually half-decent.

I think your many points about Wicked merely agree with me- it is and has been an amazing commercial success, and as such plays in an appropriate venue. It also needs to run for a very long time to even begin making money (though I seem to remember that London had made its seed money back on ticket sales before the first show opened).

Is the venue Q is going to be in immense? I have to admit I don't know the venue at all.
As I stated, if they have the right sized venue, and market this incredibly clever score/script to the right audience, they will be fine. There's no bubble, dragon, flying monkey or anything to pay for. Just a couple of puppets, a small band and small but talented cast and this show is ready to roll.

However, I am willing to tip my hat to local knowledge. If indeed you are correct it will be a tragic shame. Saw both Wicked (with Idina) and Avenue Q on consecutive nights in London. Both were fabulous, but Q in my opinion was a better overall package.

C'mon Melbourne, don't let me down!

Nev

It's the simple things stupid...

I think it's important to again stress that this show isn't just a musical. It's a puppetry performance.

I know of many puppeteers, both in Melbourne and out of state who don't mind travelling to see a good and well-known puppetry show. I myself, and other people from around the country, have travelled to see Ronnie Burkett - someone who definitely isn't known, even to those people who know about the Tonys (by the way, is the 'average' punter someone who's in the industry or the general public? Because I think the idea that Melbournians don't know what the Tonys are is slightly off). Ronnie gets sell out audiences every time he comes to Australia. He does adult marionette performances (adult as in PG, not as in burlesque or R-rated). Perhaps you would care to read up on the recent Perth puppetry festival, where people came from around the country to participate - I met one girl who came from Hobart (I think... it may have been a different state) just to VOLUNTEER and take part in the activities.

Perhaps puppetry isn't as big as MT, but I think discounting the interest by the local puppetry community (and only counting the target market as MT enthusiasts or mainstream theatre-goers) is short sighted.

... But then, I realise this will fall on deaf ears, and no amount of discussion will convince anyone that it will be a success. That's theatre for you, and I'm perfectly happy to wait til next year to apologise if necessary.

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"Your mention of the highly talented Ronnie Burkett underlines what has been written above. When he played in MELBOURNE, it was part of The Melbourne Festival – subsidised by the Australian tax payer. See –

http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts-reviews/ronnie-burketts-10-days-on-earth/2007/02/02/1169919522325.html"

In this particular case I was referring to last year's performance which was in Sydney only. You are incorrect. The link you provided was for the SYDNEY ONLY show; Ronnie came to Melbourne in 2002 and 2004 (I believe 2004), but NOT last year to perform (he did come to Melbourne to speak and give a workshop at VCA, but didn't perform). If you're going to use references like that as your proof of argument, and accuse us of not knowing the industry, at least try reading up on the tour schedule.

My point was that people are willing to go to another city in order to see good puppetry. You may discount puppetry in Australia but I refuse to. You think VCA might just purchase a whole bunch of tickets to see Avenue Q? Or Swinburne? Both of which have puppetry courses/components? Again, I ask: are we referring to mainstream theatre goers and subscribers, or are we referring to those in the industry and more fringe theatre goers?

"NA, you write – “can we move on”, then contradict yourself by added a further post."

I was ready to move on, but five seconds later I thought of something else. I wholeheartedly disagree with your opinion, and am allowed to rebut if I think of something new.

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You missed what I said.

The link you provided mentions the Melbourne show, but is about the Sydney one (10 Days on Earth was only shown in Sydney, Tinka's New Dress in Melbourne).

In my previous post, I said:

"I know of many puppeteers, both in Melbourne and out of state who don't mind travelling to see a good and well-known puppetry show. I myself, and other people from around the country, have travelled to see Ronnie Burkett"

In this particular case, I was referring to the Sydney event, for which I travelled to Sydney to see - I also saw Sue Giles there, and present were other people from outside NSW. In terms of the 2002 (Tinka's New Dress) performance, it took place not only during MIAF, but also coincided with the 2002 Puppetry and Animatronics Summit which was held at the VAC. In that particular case, many people from outside VIC attended the summit, and additionally saw Ronnie's show while in town.

I was not quibbling over whether or not the show was subsidised; I know full well when the show took place and that Ronnie's shows are even subsidised by Canadian arts councils and organisations. I was merely pointing out that your references were incorrect in associating the two shows for the same thing, and that people from all over the country involved in puppetry will want to see Avenue Q (and this time, not necessarily have to travel for it) based on my previous experiences with good puppetry shows coming from overseas.

... If you have to nitpick.

Just out of curiousity, am I still referring to Andrew, or Greg, or is this someone else? And just out of curiousity, can you answer my previous question (asked twice) about your definition of the target audience (mainstream theatre vs. those 'in the know'/industry people)?

Since you are intent on having a debate, we might as well have a clear one.

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I have not proved your point. How do you equate what I am saying with funding? My point has nothing to do with funding, and everything to do with the fact that you are discounting a target audience.

Just because one show was subsidised does not mean that they all need to be to be popular or a success. I know of a number of Melbournian puppeteers who have produced successful (small) shows in Melbourne and taken their shows out of state; without funding. Furthermore, Ronnie Burkett is but one example of a puppetry show and is not representative of the puppet industry. He has been funded by Canada governments for something like the past 10 years and is internationally recognised as one of the best marionette performers. Making him the representative of all puppeteers is like saying that all puppet makers are as well known as Jim Henson. I know a great many puppet makers who make a living off their work, but certainly wouldn't be national or international household names.

The above research is irrelevant to my point because I am not discussing target audience percentages and who does what; it's relevant to your point, but not necessarily mine.

It is beginning to be clear to me that you and I are talking cross purposes and never the twain shall meet.

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Boston is Better!!! The alliteration alone is great.

Absit invidia (and DFT )

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That's it, we'll just have to rename everything. Do you think Boston or Broadway is copyrighted?

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You're right. I can't name one. I also don't care. Hooray, you've now proved you're smarter than me and better than me and now I'll go off and cry about it. (insert sarcasm here)

You're badgering me about funding and all that, but don't read my words on how I wasn't making that particular point; you were. I say again: you are intent on only hearing about your own POV and arguments. I am happy to have an actual discussion, but when it goes round in circles you have to go do something else.

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Would the 'West End' not be more apt for here?

Depends... are we in the East or West? (We could do a similar thing with the below image)

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He he he
Love the map...

Reminds me of "Pacific Overtures" where the Russian ambassador to Japan sings:
"... start looking east,
or closer west
well further north
I feel despressed..."

My comment about Boston referred to it being the city where (traditionally) broadway shows would play their "out-of-town" tryout before heading onto the great white way...

I light-heartedly take offence to the comment "West End" as to be overly politically correct, it has connotations of finality and termination which is a burr that Perth People have often been given, even though it is partially true as it seems we are the last to get much.

None-the-less, I shall not be daunted by this self-defacing (and Perth-defacing) tangent and direct the discussion back to more profitable and emotionally positive terminology.

How about simply "West Side"? Or perhaps even that can be considered bias or derogatory as it indicates potentials competitiveness between continental halves, which whilst also a true reflection, may potentiallt rub certain minority individuals or groups in an uncomfortable manner.

Instead, let's be proud of who we are, what we do and where we live. I suggest "Centre Stage".

** Dusts hands and wipes drool from chin ** Right, I'm done now. I'll just go and get my coat.

Absit invidia (and DFT )

Jeff Watkins

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Sigh... not bothering anymore. You've missed my point more than once and seem intent on nothing but proving yourself right on one thing... I'm not going to why I brought it up, since I already did. Twice.

Bye. I'm off to do real work.

(By the way, if anyone thinks this site has more than our fair share of arguments, head over to Bad Astronomy Blog and read some of the stuff on UFOs... it makes the past year of silly posts almost seem like cotton candy. And no, Greg, Andrew, whoever you are, just in case you get the wrong idea... again... I'm not referring to you)

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Puppets in Melbourne